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You see, I have problem with posts like this. First I'm like - "Woah, I can't imagine someone would be so insensitive to make joke like this!" and get all fed

• pippy 15y ago
  Admittedly I did the exact same thing as you, right down to the same quote. Most male dominated fields of work behave like this - it's a reflection of subtle rules society that we're taught at a young age. We can try to patch it over but it might cut deeper than just culture, it maybe simply inherently biological the behavior of men around a single female.
  • Cushman 15y ago
    Well, first off, this is definitely not an inherent biological thing. There is a large population of (straight, sexually active) men who have no difficulty treating women in social and professional settings as peers rather than sexual objects. If you find that you have difficulty doing this, then you are literally a part of the problem with our community that we are discussing, and you should be spending a non-trivial amount of your time learning to manage your disability. And I mean that-- it's something that you grew up with, it's a problem, we're all here together to help you through it. But first you need to admit that it's something you have to fix.
• hythloday 15y ago
  Just being sincerely aware of it, imho, puts you in the right place. No-one expects you to be able to discard your upbringing, just to be able to critique it. The concept of noblesse oblige, I think, somewhat applies; if you're lucky enough to be born with privilege, use it for good (i.e. to eradicate that privilege).
• jamesaguilar 15y ago
  I imagine if the consequences of making comments like these were dire enough, you'd find a way. It would only take one or two times getting fired for sexual harassment for you to clean up your act. Being conscious of the issue is a start, but it doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to behave like a mature adult in an equal society. BTW, you don't have a problem with posts like this, or if you do, you didn't state it clearly. From what I can tell, posts like this have a problem with you.
• ugh 15y ago
  I don't really understand why you have a problem with these kinds of posts, then. You seem to be keenly aware of the fact that you are the problem and that you have to work to better yourself.
• InclinedPlane 15y ago
  The core problem here is that interpersonal relationships are not government by simple context free objective rules. Person A in Situation X can say and do things that are perfectly acceptable that would be deplorable and disgusting if Person B in Situation Y did precisely, exactly, identically the same thing. You can grab your lover's ass, but try that on a random stranger. Which makes telling people what they can and can't do supremely difficult. There are no objective rules for acceptable human behavior, nor can there be. Which is why feedback is so important.
  • antiterra 15y ago
    I don't think this is the core problem. Feedback is occurring, and the response isn't "Oh, I'm sorry. I'll avoid doing that in the future." It's "lighten up!" That translates roughly to: "what I was doing that bothered you is so important to me that I refuse to stop, so get over it." I think that is the core problem.
    • xymostech 15y ago
      I think it's even more than that. It's not "It's so important to me" it's "this shouldn't be important to you, because it doesn't seem important to me."
      • antiterra 15y ago
        Well, our pronouns refer to two different things, but, yes. It's two sides of the same coin.
    • knightenvy 15y ago
      I disagree. Lighten up means "I don't understand why that is bothering you because it wouldn't bother me." It is a lack of communication issue. In that article, many of the "lighten up's" are assumed based on past experiences. For example, she did not even address the guy for fear of interrupting the meeting.
      • 15y ago
• chipsy 15y ago
  Being faced with that kind of struggle is good. Everyone who's lived long enough can recall some time when they were, in hindsight, a horrible person. And if you're aware of it, you're winning. No pain, no gain.
• ryanwaggoner 15y ago
  "Katie's got the low cut dress on today! I know where I'm sitting!"...As I'm getting older, I see how sexist and demeaning this is. At the risk of revealing myself to be a chauvinistic jerk, is this kind of response sexist and demeaning, or just inappropriate for the workplace? Why do women wear low-cut dresses if not to attract male attention (in the majority of cases)? Would it be sexist and demeaning for me to notice and comment on a low-cut dress in another context (like a bar)? What about with my wife? Is it sexist and demeaning to find her sexually attractive? I'm not disagreeing that the statement is offensive and inappropriate, but I'm not sure it's sexist.
  • richardk 15y ago
    "Start wearing sweaters, even though my breasts feel like they're boiling in there (yup, that's one reason women like low tops, guys)?"
    • Tichy 15y ago
      I find it hard to believe that low cut dresses are the only possible solution here.
      • seanc722 15y ago
        Erm.. Why does it have to be a low cut dress. I see plenty of light dresses that would be suitable for professional situations that wouldnt bring out these comments. Men should be allowed o have there shirts unbuttoned down to their chest because their chests are hot from all the hair?
        • msbarnett 15y ago
          > I see plenty of light dresses that would be suitable for professional situations that wouldnt bring out these comments. Am I seeing this? Are you saying that if she didn't want to hear inappropriate comments, she shouldn't have dressed that way?
• damoncali 15y ago
  I have problem with how posts like this make me feel. That's because there is nothing wrong with you, and yet everyone around you is telling you you're a problem. Kinda like the OP feels at work.
• Tichy 15y ago
  As a supplement to those posts, I would like a set of instructions about how to talk to women properly (and women with low cut dresses especially). I mean it seems possible that the "I know where I'm sitting" guy was simply crap at giving compliments, rather than a sexist jerk. Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow.
  • omgsean 15y ago
    >Attraction between men and women exists, and it is even vital for the survival of the human race for the time being. So it has to be dealt with somehow. Not at work.
    • jrockway 15y ago
      You have to deal with it by not taking action based on the things you think. That's why you're a professional writing software and not an animal out hunting for scraps of food. (Humanity is defined by emotions, particularly physical attraction. But it's also defined by rational thought; not doing whatever you think your emotions want you to do. So if you're in a meeting with some attractive coworkers, use your rational mind to keep your comments to yourself. There are lots of people on Earth and there will be other opportunities for reproduction.)
      • Tichy 15y ago
        As I said in my other comment: in theory I agree, don't date at work is good advice. The reality is that 18% of committed couples met at their work place, though (that is the first number Google found, at least). Also, who says that I want to work as a "programming drone" - why do you get to tell me what a professional has to be like? What if I don't like it? I am not arguing for the right to leer at breasts at work, but I don't like the other extreme of being a completely rational machine that you describe either. I am not a robot. (OK, I am a robot, but a very advanced biological one).
    • Tichy 15y ago
• deleted 15y ago
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• Jabbles 15y ago
  To give an opposing opinion, I'm appalled that anyone said that to her, and am appalled at you for thinking it's a reasonable thing to say. Why would you make sexual comments at work? Making jokes is fine, commenting on clothes is fine, telling a joke involving sex is probably fine (depending on the joke...). Having a conversation (two-way) about sex is fine. Making a specific comment about a colleague's sex appeal is inappropriate. I don't see how you can't see that someone might be offended by it.
  • hythloday 15y ago
    I don't think we should be censuring someone who is brave enough to acknowledge their sexism. I also think you're misreading the post, which didn't say that it was "reasonable"...it said it was "cool". Crucial difference.
    • Jabbles 15y ago
      I hope that my criticism helps. I think "I can imagine myself saying" implies he thought it was "reasonable".
      • rosser 15y ago
        I think "I can imagine myself saying" implies he thought it was "reasonable". No, it doesn't. I can imagine myself saying all kinds patently disturbing and offensive things — things which, to a certainty, are not remotely "reasonable" — but I would never actually say, let alone mean, them. By analogy, I can imagine pulling my Leatherman out of its sheath and sticking the blade between someone's ribs. Doesn't mean it's reasonable, or that I'd ever do it, especially not in jest.
        • deleted 15y ago
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      • hythloday 15y ago
        I can totally see how you read him as justifying himself; I read him as being conflicted about being brought up to believe that it was OK to do things he now thinks aren't OK, so I wanted to speak up in appreciation that someone would put himself in a position to be criticized like that--I think "masculinity" (whatever that is) benefits from having people say that.
• deleted 15y ago
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• rokhayakebe 15y ago
  We've just had an identical (100%) feeling. I was telling myself "Come on, stop crying like a baby" until I read those words. I feel extremely sorry for her and anyone who has to go through this.
  • knightenvy 15y ago
    I feel as you do, though she did not help her situation but not doing anything about it.
• xbryanx 15y ago
  Every time you're ready to make a comment like that (which is WAY beyond inappropriate) imagine saying it to your sister, imagine saying it when you are the only many in the room, imagine a situation where you are not the dominant one with the power.
  • bdr 15y ago
    This is a great comment. Imagining these alternative situations uses your intuitive knowledge of how things work instead of trying to apply abstract principles.
• jmadsen 15y ago
  Sorry, that's lame. I grew up in a small, all-white community where jokes about blacks were common and accepted. when I grew up and moved away, I learned how bad that was. so I stopped. I don't ever, ever slip up, because I don't think that way any more. "I try, I really try, but sometimes I forget myself."? No, you just THINK you are really trying.
  • cellularmitosis 15y ago
    I think there's a distinction which needs to be acknowledged here. Skirt-chasing is something which is appropriate in some situations, but not others, while being racist is wrong in all situations. If someone grew up in a racist environment, the goal is for them to stop thinking that way, period. If someone grew up in an environment where they mistakenly believed it was always appropriate to verbally acknowledge your sexual attraction to someone, the goal is simply for them to get better at recognizing situations in which they need to self-censor. There is no shame in being sexually attracted to women, but verbally acknowledging it is inappropriate in some situations.
• erikpukinskis 15y ago
  Thank you for your honesty and self reflection. I really appreciate it. > frankly, I don't know how I can help it. Two things you can do are practice and self-education. Subscribe to http://geekfeminism.org http://geekfeminism.org and http://feministing.com http://feministing.com. Reading those posts will give you the stories and information you need to understand the effects of your actions. Then practice. You won't immediately be able to catch everything, so just focus on the things that make you hesitate. Those moments when I think "maybe I shouldn't say this", I almost always learn later that I was right. Use at hesitation to do a little analysis of what the effect of your words might be. You can also practice in your head, or in conversation. When you're on the bus, think about things you said recently, and analyze them. Look for things that might've hurt people. When you're having conversations with people, think about what you would've said in that situation. Practice the analysis, and practice saying the right things. You'll never be perfect, but you can TOTALLY get to the point where you're mostly not harming people. Which is an awesome place to get from the default for men, which is harming people over all day without having any clue.
• MartinCron 15y ago
  I think it's really brave of you to own up to this. So often people develop a sort of bunker mentality and can't see other perspectives. If there's hope for you, there's hope for all of us.
• ivankirigin 15y ago
  If you comment on a woman's neckline at work, you definitely have a problem and should go out of your way to change your behavior and thinking.
• cooperq 15y ago
  Wow a person of privilege (male) feels uncomfortable when being asked not to do something that harms a person of less privilege (female). How difficult that must be for you. I really feel your plight. Asshole.
• nvarsj 15y ago
  I have a lot of relatives that grew up in a apartheid South Africa. And a few of them have a similar explanation for their attitude towards black people - "oh, well that's how I grew up/everyone was doing it!" But it's a load of BS. I have close relatives who grew up in that environment who are not racist at all. If you think for yourself, there is little chance of social pressures influencing your behavior - at the risk of ostracism, of course (hello High School!). Regardless of past influences, I believe that we, as rational beings, can overcome any behavior w/ practice and effort. To not do so is a character flaw that should be worked on.
• mkramlich 15y ago
  A lot of people can't handle jokes. And a lot of people can't handle sexuality and playfulness, or confuse sexual jokes with sexism. Of course, sometimes somebody goes too far. But also sometimes somebody is too sensitive. It's probably better to err on the safe side and not risk offending somebody unless you're already pretty sure it would be okay with them. I'm having flashbacks now to the video on Reddit yesterday where the black female college student went psycho apeshit in class when the professor was lecturing about evolution. She seemed to think there was some kind of persecution going on involving evolution and black people, and became violently angry at both the professor and the other students, interpreting things seemingly 180 degrees opposite, almost hallucination-like, compared to everybody else. Compared to the sane, healthy, objective people. They recorded it on many cellphones too. The point I'm making, in relation to the OA, is that yes there is sexism and sometimes inappropriate things are said. But yes it is also true that sometimes some people are wacked in the mind and/or misinterpret things. And without really knowing the specific person directly or seeing the events directly with our own eyes, we can't really know which it is. I'll just close with the observation that there are probably at least 10's of millions of Americans, if not 100 million plus, that believe the Christian God exists, lightning bolts and all, angry man in the clouds, all the miracles, etc. Some of those folks also work in offices and post on the web. Some program. Some are "scientists" even. So take everything you read with a dose of skepticism. I'm also having flashbacks to all the times I've been asked to take notes in meetings. I'm pretty sure I'm male too.
• m-photonic 15y ago
  >I have exact same problem with how I perceive woman and man having multiple sexual partners. "Good key opens many locks, but good lock is opened by only one key" and all that bullshit - I know that it's ridiculous to hold woman and men to different standard in this regard Without endorsing any specific views on female vs male promiscuity, I don't see what's so bad about seeing a distinction between them. The fact is, men and women are different from each other, and male and female promiscuity are different phenomena.
  • xyzzyz 15y ago
    "Without endorsing any specific views on intelligence of tall vs short people, I don't see what's so bad about seeing a distinction between them. The fact is, tall and short people are different from each other, and their intelligence are different phenomena." You can substitute many other things in there, and it will make equally bad argument. 80 years ago one could similarly argue about black vs white people, and it wouldn't be considered wrong or racist back then. It's just less obvious after years of cultural conditioning.
    • m-photonic 15y ago
      Your analogy completely misses the point. Studies show promiscuous men tend to have better than average accuracy in their assessments of their own attractiveness. This makes sense; having had more experience flirting with women, they have a better sense of how women respond to them. Promiscuous women, on the other hand, tend to greatly overestimate their own attractiveness. They assume they must be especially attractive if men are showing so much sexual interest in them, not realizing that most men have very low standards when it comes to casual sex -- men's standards only come into play when it comes to longer-term relationships. You might say things like this aren't a big deal, but it still serves as a concrete example of how male and female promiscuity are different from one another and affect people's lives differently -- and frankly it's far from the only one. It's silly to deny the subtleties of human sexuality in the name of some egalitarian ideal. By insisting on viewing women exactly the same as you would view men, you are discarding useful information about the world.
• lucisferre 15y ago
  Well I'm glad you admitted it, because the number of men in your boat is all too obvious to me. Again not to further aggravate your guilt response, but all you have to do is read some of the responses to this (http://blog.sqoot.com/we-can-do-better-an-apology-from-sqoot http://blog.sqoot.com/we-can-do-better-an-apology-from-sqoot) to see how many are the male apologists. All out in force trying to assuage their guilt by defending the guilty. Unfortunately those who can't get over the guilt you feel via this association, are far more likely to defend the same behaviour in others in order to make that feeling go away. This is only going to stop when we stop feeling guilty and choose to act differently.