4 ms·

Residential School ‘Mass Grave’ was underground rocks, no bodies found

33 points by fortran77 3y ago

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
I humbly suggest that the Canadian government should pursue prosecution against the media outlets who irresponsibly, recklessly, and maliciously promoted this fake news, because these stories have become an incitement to hate crimes of terroristic violence, torching and vandalizing Catholic churches, and even extracting spurious apologies from Pope Francis for so-called "atrocities" which never transpired. I hope these journalists are ashamed of themselves and I hope they are at least sacked, with their careers relegated to selling poutine all day.
- kazinator 3y ago
  s/selling/eating/ ?
- defrost 3y ago
  > the media outlets who irresponsibly, recklessly, and maliciously promoted this fake news Like the linked article above? The only news sources claiming 'mass graves' with the implication that a whole bunch of children were murdered all at once are the catholic apologists who are setting up a ridiculous strawman. It is known and admitted by the residential schools that over a hundred years many many children died and are buried in unmarked graves. Individual graves - now unmarked, with destroyed records: Archeologists detected what they said could be 200 unmarked graves at this former school in Kamloops, British Columbia in May 2021. Weeks later, a further 751 unmarked graves were detected across from the former Marieval Residential School on the Cowessess reserve in Saskatchewan. There was once a Catholic cemetery here, but the headstones were bulldozed in the 1960s by a priest after a dispute with a former chief. A small team of researchers has been trying to discover the names of those children buried here, but for decades the government and the church had been reluctant to share their records. Chief Cadmus Delorme is trying to get answers. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/canada-residential-schools-unmarked-graves-indigenous-children-60-minutes-2023-02-12/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/canada-residential-schools-unma... > even extracting spurious apologies from Pope Francis for so-called "atrocities" which never transpired. Right, all the priestly types are truth tellers and the wealth of testimony aginst them is from those damn lying natives who fooled the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that compiled testimony from thousands of survivors? http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/grook2.html http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/grook2.html
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    They detected nothing. Do you see? This article describes dowsers running fancy machines over things to detect ghosts and shadows. They have found what they are looking for, and now the media manufactures the outrage. When children died, and they were buried, they were not "buried in unmarked graves"; they were buried in consecrated, holy Catholic cemeteries with markers, markers which were later bulldozed to erase the evidence which was left by those who cared for the children and upheld their dignity unto death.
    - defrost 3y ago
      There are many many residential sschools in Canada, and many many cases of known deaths with no corresponding graves. This is a single instance of a single basement having no human remains in it. > This article describes dowsers running fancy machines over things to detect ghosts and shadows. This article, as noted by other commentators, is thick with strawmanning and painting false narratives. GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) is not used by "dowsers" - it's a geophysical instrument used extensively by archeologists to identify potential underground targets of interest. It identifies disturbed soil - not bodies and this instance of a single basement not containing human remains does nothing to refute or address the larger issues surround a large number of Canadian Indian schools. > When children died, and they were buried, they were not "buried in unmarked graves"; they were buried in consecrated, holy Catholic cemeteries with markers, markers which were later bulldozed to erase the evidence Could you please expand upon why a priest bulldozed grave markers to hide deceased children from their families? Still, at least you're now admitting the possiblity that the 200+ GPR echoes in Kamloops (and other numbers of a similar size at other schools) might actually be unmarked graves. Although from the sounds of thing you're onboard with strangers turning up, stealing your children, forcing them to adhere to Hindu practices, and beating them with sticks should they speak english?
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        > This article, as noted by other commentators, is thick with strawmanning and painting false narratives. You sure got that right! Prosecute irresponsible journalists.
rdtsc 3y ago
I am sure the people who spread those news will get together with those who vandalized and burned churches [1] [2] to rebuild and clean up the vandalism as an act of community volunteering and then go on an apology tour. [1] Harsha Walia, the executive director of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association responded to reports of fires at indigenous Catholic parishes with a tweet on June 30 that read "burn it all down" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_church_burnings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_church_burnings [2] https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/248198/historic-denver-church-vandalized-motive-unclear https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/248198/historic-denv...
- defrost 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - decremental 3y ago
    [dead]
  - philwelch 3y ago
    This is a disgusting, victim-blaming excuse for literal hate crimes and you should be ashamed.
    - defrost 3y ago
      I'm in no way blaming the victims of christian brothers schools for indigenous children and having worked cataloging material from a royal commission into the practices of such schools I'm suprised that anybody would. https://home.crin.org/issues/sexual-violence/australia-case-study-clergy-abuse https://home.crin.org/issues/sexual-violence/australia-case-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Institutional_Responses_to_Child_Sexual_Abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Institut... Still, by all means do please address the question I posed above; why are the indigenous people of Canada so darned angry at the schools that stole their children and "beat the Indian" out of them?
gremlinsinc 3y ago
I'm not too familiar with politics etc in Canada but just looking at the headlines you can tell this is basically a right wing tabloid, Alex Jones quackery for Canadians.
- decremental 3y ago
  [dead]
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  How about reacting to the message instead of the messenger? Then there is the fact that there are several recent occasions where such "right wing tabloid(s)" turned out to be right while the "good, responsible and professional" left-wing publications were very much in the wrong. Blindly siding with any type of publication just makes you a tool for their use whether that'd be a left-wing "useful idiot" along Lenin's lines or the right-wing equivalent.
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    my point is the entire site feels shady. also I'm not talking about left wing publications. I'm talking about major news outlets like the ny times, local news papers and tv stations, CNN, etc. I'm also curious what stories you think right wing tabloids got right.
    - the_third_wave 3y ago
      > I'm not talking about left wing publications. I'm talking about major news outlets like the ny times That is a contradiction nowadays, the NYT is squarely on the left side of the political spectrum [1]. This goes for the news department but even more for the opinion department which leans even further to the left [2]. As in what "right wing tabloids" got right the prime example is the "Hunter Biden laptop story" - which is far more than a single story but which has become known under those terms. Even though they were factually correct the "left-wing media" has done its best to smear them, try to connect them to "The Russians", label them and otherwise avoid touching the factually correct reporting on Biden's son and what that entails for "The Big Guy". There are other examples where they got things (mostly) right where the "left-wing media" after several years of denial finally came around, a good example of this is the origins of the SARS2 pandemic where the lab leak option was directly put aside simply because their undesirable person #1 (Trump) happened to suggest it. When I read something on e.g. The Guardian I'm flabbergasted by the torrent of climate scare propaganda they keep on pushing which makes it hard for me to take them seriously. That does not mean everything they publish is nonsense, sometimes they engage in factually correct reporting on salient issues. This is why I don't immediately denounce anything published by them as being tainted by their propagandistic tendencies. So, look at the message, not solely at the messenger. If I can do so I do not see why you couldn't. [1] https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times [2] https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times-opinion-media-bias https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times-opinion-...
0xbadc0de5 3y ago
Discovering these children were not murdered is fantastic news. Anyone upset by that should reflect on why.
fortran77 3y ago
Note that activists have flagged the story here. A simple story about an excavation that even shows concern and takes pain not to discount the abuse. That’s how wacky the True Believers are.
rich_sasha 3y ago
Just so I understand, is this article saying that in fact the revelations about unmarked graves at Catholic institutions in Canada remain unsubstantiated? That the findings that caused the outrage were in some way preliminary and did not stand up to further scrutiny? I'm trying to understand if it is saying this about some (small) subset of such news, or in fact about the whole wave of news. And if that's right, is that corroborated by other sources? The original news was huge (and of course it would be), this seems quieter so I'm just double checking I understood it right.

33 points by fortran77 3y ago

I humbly suggest that the Canadian government should pursue prosecution against the media outlets who irresponsibly, recklessly, and maliciously promoted this fake news, because these stories have become an incitement to hate crimes of terroristic violence, torching and vandalizing Catholic churches, and even extracting spurious apologies from Pope Francis for so-called "atrocities" which never transpired. I hope these journalists are ashamed of themselves and I hope they are at least sacked, with their careers relegated to selling poutine all day.

kazinator 3y ago
s/selling/eating/ ?
defrost 3y ago
> the media outlets who irresponsibly, recklessly, and maliciously promoted this fake news Like the linked article above? The only news sources claiming 'mass graves' with the implication that a whole bunch of children were murdered all at once are the catholic apologists who are setting up a ridiculous strawman. It is known and admitted by the residential schools that over a hundred years many many children died and are buried in unmarked graves. Individual graves - now unmarked, with destroyed records: Archeologists detected what they said could be 200 unmarked graves at this former school in Kamloops, British Columbia in May 2021. Weeks later, a further 751 unmarked graves were detected across from the former Marieval Residential School on the Cowessess reserve in Saskatchewan. There was once a Catholic cemetery here, but the headstones were bulldozed in the 1960s by a priest after a dispute with a former chief. A small team of researchers has been trying to discover the names of those children buried here, but for decades the government and the church had been reluctant to share their records. Chief Cadmus Delorme is trying to get answers. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/canada-residential-schools-unmarked-graves-indigenous-children-60-minutes-2023-02-12/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/canada-residential-schools-unma... > even extracting spurious apologies from Pope Francis for so-called "atrocities" which never transpired. Right, all the priestly types are truth tellers and the wealth of testimony aginst them is from those damn lying natives who fooled the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that compiled testimony from thousands of survivors? http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/grook2.html http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/grook2.html
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  They detected nothing. Do you see? This article describes dowsers running fancy machines over things to detect ghosts and shadows. They have found what they are looking for, and now the media manufactures the outrage. When children died, and they were buried, they were not "buried in unmarked graves"; they were buried in consecrated, holy Catholic cemeteries with markers, markers which were later bulldozed to erase the evidence which was left by those who cared for the children and upheld their dignity unto death.
  - defrost 3y ago
    There are many many residential sschools in Canada, and many many cases of known deaths with no corresponding graves. This is a single instance of a single basement having no human remains in it. > This article describes dowsers running fancy machines over things to detect ghosts and shadows. This article, as noted by other commentators, is thick with strawmanning and painting false narratives. GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) is not used by "dowsers" - it's a geophysical instrument used extensively by archeologists to identify potential underground targets of interest. It identifies disturbed soil - not bodies and this instance of a single basement not containing human remains does nothing to refute or address the larger issues surround a large number of Canadian Indian schools. > When children died, and they were buried, they were not "buried in unmarked graves"; they were buried in consecrated, holy Catholic cemeteries with markers, markers which were later bulldozed to erase the evidence Could you please expand upon why a priest bulldozed grave markers to hide deceased children from their families? Still, at least you're now admitting the possiblity that the 200+ GPR echoes in Kamloops (and other numbers of a similar size at other schools) might actually be unmarked graves. Although from the sounds of thing you're onboard with strangers turning up, stealing your children, forcing them to adhere to Hindu practices, and beating them with sticks should they speak english?
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      > This article, as noted by other commentators, is thick with strawmanning and painting false narratives. You sure got that right! Prosecute irresponsible journalists.

rdtsc 3y ago

I am sure the people who spread those news will get together with those who vandalized and burned churches [1] [2] to rebuild and clean up the vandalism as an act of community volunteering and then go on an apology tour. [1] Harsha Walia, the executive director of the British Columbia Civil Liberties Association responded to reports of fires at indigenous Catholic parishes with a tweet on June 30 that read "burn it all down" from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_church_burnings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Canadian_church_burnings [2] https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/248198/historic-denver-church-vandalized-motive-unclear https://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/248198/historic-denv...

defrost 3y ago
[flagged]
- decremental 3y ago
  [dead]
- philwelch 3y ago
  This is a disgusting, victim-blaming excuse for literal hate crimes and you should be ashamed.
  - defrost 3y ago
    I'm in no way blaming the victims of christian brothers schools for indigenous children and having worked cataloging material from a royal commission into the practices of such schools I'm suprised that anybody would. https://home.crin.org/issues/sexual-violence/australia-case-study-clergy-abuse https://home.crin.org/issues/sexual-violence/australia-case-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Institutional_Responses_to_Child_Sexual_Abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Commission_into_Institut... Still, by all means do please address the question I posed above; why are the indigenous people of Canada so darned angry at the schools that stole their children and "beat the Indian" out of them?

gremlinsinc 3y ago

I'm not too familiar with politics etc in Canada but just looking at the headlines you can tell this is basically a right wing tabloid, Alex Jones quackery for Canadians.

decremental 3y ago
[dead]
the_third_wave 3y ago
How about reacting to the message instead of the messenger? Then there is the fact that there are several recent occasions where such "right wing tabloid(s)" turned out to be right while the "good, responsible and professional" left-wing publications were very much in the wrong. Blindly siding with any type of publication just makes you a tool for their use whether that'd be a left-wing "useful idiot" along Lenin's lines or the right-wing equivalent.
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  my point is the entire site feels shady. also I'm not talking about left wing publications. I'm talking about major news outlets like the ny times, local news papers and tv stations, CNN, etc. I'm also curious what stories you think right wing tabloids got right.
  - the_third_wave 3y ago
    > I'm not talking about left wing publications. I'm talking about major news outlets like the ny times That is a contradiction nowadays, the NYT is squarely on the left side of the political spectrum [1]. This goes for the news department but even more for the opinion department which leans even further to the left [2]. As in what "right wing tabloids" got right the prime example is the "Hunter Biden laptop story" - which is far more than a single story but which has become known under those terms. Even though they were factually correct the "left-wing media" has done its best to smear them, try to connect them to "The Russians", label them and otherwise avoid touching the factually correct reporting on Biden's son and what that entails for "The Big Guy". There are other examples where they got things (mostly) right where the "left-wing media" after several years of denial finally came around, a good example of this is the origins of the SARS2 pandemic where the lab leak option was directly put aside simply because their undesirable person #1 (Trump) happened to suggest it. When I read something on e.g. The Guardian I'm flabbergasted by the torrent of climate scare propaganda they keep on pushing which makes it hard for me to take them seriously. That does not mean everything they publish is nonsense, sometimes they engage in factually correct reporting on salient issues. This is why I don't immediately denounce anything published by them as being tainted by their propagandistic tendencies. So, look at the message, not solely at the messenger. If I can do so I do not see why you couldn't. [1] https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times [2] https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times-opinion-media-bias https://www.allsides.com/news-source/new-york-times-opinion-...

0xbadc0de5 3y ago

Discovering these children were not murdered is fantastic news. Anyone upset by that should reflect on why.

fortran77 3y ago

Note that activists have flagged the story here. A simple story about an excavation that even shows concern and takes pain not to discount the abuse. That’s how wacky the True Believers are.

rich_sasha 3y ago

Just so I understand, is this article saying that in fact the revelations about unmarked graves at Catholic institutions in Canada remain unsubstantiated? That the findings that caused the outrage were in some way preliminary and did not stand up to further scrutiny? I'm trying to understand if it is saying this about some (small) subset of such news, or in fact about the whole wave of news. And if that's right, is that corroborated by other sources? The original news was huge (and of course it would be), this seems quieter so I'm just double checking I understood it right.