6 ms·

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment

by crusso 15y ago

@kcunning - How do you contrast your desire to have a perfectly professional relationship with everyone you work with vs a desire to enjoy an office environment where you can joke around and have fun? While I understand your answer may well be, "Leave the jokes at home, Mr. Colbert. I'm here to code and make a paycheck." I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions. While there are always those who don't know how to avoid crossing the lines of appropriateness; do you feel that most of your coworkers are doing so?

kcunning 15y ago
I'm actually a fairly baudy person. I've made sailors blush. I don't mind joking around at all. What irks me is when someone does something sexist, and I do speak up about it... and I'm told to 'lighten up'. If it was important enough for me to say something, then at least acknowledge that. Most of my co-workers are awesome. They'd never dream of making the dress comment, or tell me to go get their coffee. But it doesn't have to be everyone. Even a few jerks can make an environment go from awesome to horrible.
- crusso 15y ago
  Fair enough. Is the place large enough to have a separate HR department? It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments. I've never known any HR folks who put up with the smallest bit of it. It's their job to get righteously pissed off at that kind of behavior.
  - jff 15y ago
    HR should also be on your side there too because, at least in my company, HR is almost entirely staffed by women. So they quite possibly have their own experiences with sexism in the workplace and won't simply dismiss the problem.
    - wilmoore 15y ago
      I love seeing a diversified HR department. Generally this means everyone gets a fair shake.
  - rmc 15y ago
    It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments A lot of confusion and conflict can happen when 1 person things a thing is a joke, and another person thinks the same thing is a sexist comment. This can be where the "lighten up" response can come from.
  - j_baker 15y ago
    It's very rare for someone to be so overtly sexist that the HR department can intervene. Usually, there's some doubt for the harasser to receive the benefit of. And besides that, how would that affect her reputation if she turns into "the complainer who got Joe fired"?
- guard-of-terra 15y ago
  Learn to troll. You, as a woman, can bite a man ten times worse than any male colleague. Just respond. The effect would be amazing.
omgsean 15y ago
If you don't know how to avoid crossing the line you shouldn't be joking around. The onus is on you, the joke maker, to have a basic understanding of your audience as well as your privileges in society.
- crusso 15y ago
  Did you see the story yesterday about a teacher being suspended (possibly permanently) for reading Ender's Game to his students because a parent accused the book of being "pornographic"? While I agree that you should be careful about knowing your audience and where the lines are, there are some people who are going to have all kinds of lines in unexpected places. Sometimes, those lines move. Last week, a wry "yo mamma" might have been an appropriate come-back to Jim. Today, you might really upset him with the same comment because his mother died the day before. The only real solution with some folks is to never so much as crack a smile at them. They may take it the wrong way.
  - RandallBrown 15y ago
    there were other books he also read, one of which mentioned ejaculating on a prostitutes face. I think Enders Game just happened to be the most notable of the books that the teacher read to the class.
  - omgsean 15y ago
    Obviously the safe bet is to not crack jokes that may hurt people around you. If you don't know how to joke around without hurting people, don't joke around with your co-workers.
VMG 15y ago
Banter should be mutual. This extends to males as well. If your "witty remarks" aren't reciprocated, stop.
- lhnn 15y ago
  This is the key, and the most valuable comment in this entire thread. Just like making moves on people, the smartest tactic is to go as far as you feel like going, carefully, until it's not symmetrical. The women I work with in IT have had incredibly adult jokes made about them and vice-versa, because it's known and comfortable. If it wasn't mutual, you should know to back off, because they aren't going to lighten up.
  - strix_varius 15y ago
    This applies regardless of gender or situation. I haven't shared the OP's experience of software developers being oblivious to asymmetrical interactions. Most nerds I know are very good at this.
pingswept 15y ago
Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.
- crusso 15y ago
  > Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."
  - jamesaguilar 15y ago
    There's plenty of R-rated humor that's not degrading to women.
  - pingswept 15y ago
    I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you. For the people on the other side of the joke, it's not fun. From what Katie Cunningham writes, it's so unbearable that she's on the verge of leaving the profession she loves. With that understanding of the situation, sexist jokes lose their humor, at least for me.
    - crusso 15y ago
      >I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you. Where did I defend sexist humor? I think that Katie Cunningham is putting up with some nonsense and she should take direct action. My question to Katie was just regarding the line between humor and offense and how she drew a distinction? She apparently didn't get offended and answered me quite frankly. There's really no need for you to jump in and mischaracterize my position. Lots of white knights in this thread that she doesn't really seem to need to take care of her.
stcredzero 15y ago
I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions. There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asymmetric power relationship, and the other party has the short end of it. It used to be, back in the 50's, men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met. That sort of thing is a clear indication of the uneven power relationship. To really understand, you need to be on the "short" end, and more, you need to understand what it's like growing up with that constantly in the environment. Yes, often one doesn't have bad intentions. But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding." If you're really self aware, you may start to realize there's been a difference in social distance between off-color remarks to women vs. others. (African Americans, perhaps?)
- mtoddh 15y ago
  men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met Unrelated to the thread, but isn't this how you get know people you've just met?
  - stcredzero 15y ago
    The key is entitled. Men used to be able to assume they'd be welcomed. No need to ask.
    - mtoddh 15y ago
      Sorry but I don't see how your example of a guy initiating a dialogue with women he just met is an example of a power imbalance. Partly because you're guessing at how he feels - maybe he feels entitled or maybe he feels nervous at hell, because he knows there's a chance of rejection/getting rebuffed/etc. Of course, maybe I'm biased since I met my wife by simply going up and talking to her while she was waiting in line to purchase a ticket for a boat ride :-)
InclinedPlane 15y ago
This ain't rocket science, it's trivial. It's called having boundaries. You may reach into the pants of your lover but you damned sure aren't going to do that to a stranger or a coworker, right? Do most people have trouble keeping track of what things are appropriate in which contexts? Around coworkers you act professionally. If you develop a friendship with your coworkers then you can change the way you act around those coworkers. If you become friends with a female coworker and she is ok with you making casually sexist jokes, then that's fine. But until you've crossed that friendship boundary then you should rightly feel inhibited to "make jokes" like that to a female coworker.
anon808 15y ago
does your office environment where you can joke around and have fun include racist humor?
- streptomycin 15y ago
  Mine does. We have people from a lot of different parts of the world, so there's plenty of opportunities for good fun. The line between tasteless and tasteful humor is blurry.
- crusso 15y ago
  Not at this company. I was told "white people are crazy" by an african american coworker at a different company a few years back. I guess that was racist humor. I just LOL'd, though. Maybe because I'm "crazy". Do you think I should have brought it up with HR instead?
- strix_varius 15y ago
  By saying 'racist' humor, rather than 'humor about race,' you turned your question rhetorical. However, humor about race, gender, age, etc can all be hilarious, even in an office.
mindstab 15y ago
This is bullshit. There is a big wide area between joking around and sexism and unwanted flirting etc. Guys like you are all like "it's just fun and we tease all the time" right up until another dude in the work force hits on you or makes a sex related comment about you, and then you freeze up, get awkward and generally hate it. How would you feel if one of your male coworkers tried this stuff with you? And do not even try to say its different because women are supposed to like men or something like that, it's 10 kinds of wrong. just don't.

by crusso 15y ago

kcunning 15y ago

I'm actually a fairly baudy person. I've made sailors blush. I don't mind joking around at all. What irks me is when someone does something sexist, and I do speak up about it... and I'm told to 'lighten up'. If it was important enough for me to say something, then at least acknowledge that. Most of my co-workers are awesome. They'd never dream of making the dress comment, or tell me to go get their coffee. But it doesn't have to be everyone. Even a few jerks can make an environment go from awesome to horrible.

crusso 15y ago
Fair enough. Is the place large enough to have a separate HR department? It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments. I've never known any HR folks who put up with the smallest bit of it. It's their job to get righteously pissed off at that kind of behavior.
- jff 15y ago
  HR should also be on your side there too because, at least in my company, HR is almost entirely staffed by women. So they quite possibly have their own experiences with sexism in the workplace and won't simply dismiss the problem.
  - wilmoore 15y ago
    I love seeing a diversified HR department. Generally this means everyone gets a fair shake.
- rmc 15y ago
  It's one thing to joke around, but another to make unwanted sexist comments A lot of confusion and conflict can happen when 1 person things a thing is a joke, and another person thinks the same thing is a sexist comment. This can be where the "lighten up" response can come from.
- j_baker 15y ago
  It's very rare for someone to be so overtly sexist that the HR department can intervene. Usually, there's some doubt for the harasser to receive the benefit of. And besides that, how would that affect her reputation if she turns into "the complainer who got Joe fired"?
guard-of-terra 15y ago
Learn to troll. You, as a woman, can bite a man ten times worse than any male colleague. Just respond. The effect would be amazing.

omgsean 15y ago

If you don't know how to avoid crossing the line you shouldn't be joking around. The onus is on you, the joke maker, to have a basic understanding of your audience as well as your privileges in society.

crusso 15y ago
Did you see the story yesterday about a teacher being suspended (possibly permanently) for reading Ender's Game to his students because a parent accused the book of being "pornographic"? While I agree that you should be careful about knowing your audience and where the lines are, there are some people who are going to have all kinds of lines in unexpected places. Sometimes, those lines move. Last week, a wry "yo mamma" might have been an appropriate come-back to Jim. Today, you might really upset him with the same comment because his mother died the day before. The only real solution with some folks is to never so much as crack a smile at them. They may take it the wrong way.
- RandallBrown 15y ago
  there were other books he also read, one of which mentioned ejaculating on a prostitutes face. I think Enders Game just happened to be the most notable of the books that the teacher read to the class.
- omgsean 15y ago
  Obviously the safe bet is to not crack jokes that may hurt people around you. If you don't know how to joke around without hurting people, don't joke around with your co-workers.

VMG 15y ago

Banter should be mutual. This extends to males as well. If your "witty remarks" aren't reciprocated, stop.

lhnn 15y ago
This is the key, and the most valuable comment in this entire thread. Just like making moves on people, the smartest tactic is to go as far as you feel like going, carefully, until it's not symmetrical. The women I work with in IT have had incredibly adult jokes made about them and vice-versa, because it's known and comfortable. If it wasn't mutual, you should know to back off, because they aren't going to lighten up.
- strix_varius 15y ago
  This applies regardless of gender or situation. I haven't shared the OP's experience of software developers being oblivious to asymmetrical interactions. Most nerds I know are very good at this.

pingswept 15y ago

Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would rather work in an office where the jokes are of the funny sort, rather than the makes-one-person-feel-miserable sort. I really don't think there's any overlap between funny jokes and sexist jokes.

crusso 15y ago
> Do you think there's a conflict between sexism and fun? As in, "Well, I'd like to stop making sexist jokes, but then it would be so boring here." I would phrase it, "If everyone's humor had to be bland Disney G-rated fare, then a lot of fun would have been sucked out of our work environment."
- jamesaguilar 15y ago
  There's plenty of R-rated humor that's not degrading to women.
- pingswept 15y ago
  I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you. For the people on the other side of the joke, it's not fun. From what Katie Cunningham writes, it's so unbearable that she's on the verge of leaving the profession she loves. With that understanding of the situation, sexist jokes lose their humor, at least for me.
  - crusso 15y ago
    >I think you should revise your perception of what is being gained by sexist humor. It seems that you get some good laughs out of it-- no problem for you. Where did I defend sexist humor? I think that Katie Cunningham is putting up with some nonsense and she should take direct action. My question to Katie was just regarding the line between humor and offense and how she drew a distinction? She apparently didn't get offended and answered me quite frankly. There's really no need for you to jump in and mischaracterize my position. Lots of white knights in this thread that she doesn't really seem to need to take care of her.

stcredzero 15y ago

I would be sad if my relationship with my coworkers couldn't handle, let alone thrive upon, humorous interactions. There is a big difference underneath the surface, though on the surface, many such incidents look like just "joking around." The difference has to do with social distance. If you feel an off-color remark is appropriate for someone you barely know, then I hate to tell you, but you're on one end of an asymmetric power relationship, and the other party has the short end of it. It used to be, back in the 50's, men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met. That sort of thing is a clear indication of the uneven power relationship. To really understand, you need to be on the "short" end, and more, you need to understand what it's like growing up with that constantly in the environment. Yes, often one doesn't have bad intentions. But I'm explaining it to you now. Just be honest with yourself about social distance and "kidding." If you're really self aware, you may start to realize there's been a difference in social distance between off-color remarks to women vs. others. (African Americans, perhaps?)

mtoddh 15y ago
men in the US felt entitled to join conversations with and sit at the same table with a pair of young women they didn't know and had just met Unrelated to the thread, but isn't this how you get know people you've just met?
- stcredzero 15y ago
  The key is entitled. Men used to be able to assume they'd be welcomed. No need to ask.
  - mtoddh 15y ago
    Sorry but I don't see how your example of a guy initiating a dialogue with women he just met is an example of a power imbalance. Partly because you're guessing at how he feels - maybe he feels entitled or maybe he feels nervous at hell, because he knows there's a chance of rejection/getting rebuffed/etc. Of course, maybe I'm biased since I met my wife by simply going up and talking to her while she was waiting in line to purchase a ticket for a boat ride :-)

InclinedPlane 15y ago

This ain't rocket science, it's trivial. It's called having boundaries. You may reach into the pants of your lover but you damned sure aren't going to do that to a stranger or a coworker, right? Do most people have trouble keeping track of what things are appropriate in which contexts? Around coworkers you act professionally. If you develop a friendship with your coworkers then you can change the way you act around those coworkers. If you become friends with a female coworker and she is ok with you making casually sexist jokes, then that's fine. But until you've crossed that friendship boundary then you should rightly feel inhibited to "make jokes" like that to a female coworker.

anon808 15y ago

does your office environment where you can joke around and have fun include racist humor?

streptomycin 15y ago
Mine does. We have people from a lot of different parts of the world, so there's plenty of opportunities for good fun. The line between tasteless and tasteful humor is blurry.
crusso 15y ago
Not at this company. I was told "white people are crazy" by an african american coworker at a different company a few years back. I guess that was racist humor. I just LOL'd, though. Maybe because I'm "crazy". Do you think I should have brought it up with HR instead?
strix_varius 15y ago
By saying 'racist' humor, rather than 'humor about race,' you turned your question rhetorical. However, humor about race, gender, age, etc can all be hilarious, even in an office.

mindstab 15y ago

This is bullshit. There is a big wide area between joking around and sexism and unwanted flirting etc. Guys like you are all like "it's just fun and we tease all the time" right up until another dude in the work force hits on you or makes a sex related comment about you, and then you freeze up, get awkward and generally hate it. How would you feel if one of your male coworkers tried this stuff with you? And do not even try to say its different because women are supposed to like men or something like that, it's 10 kinds of wrong. just don't.