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Small farmer here. Big farms are the problem. If regulations under discussion were applied equally to all farms, then most small farms would cease to exist, b

Small farmer here. Big farms are the problem. If regulations under discussion were applied equally to all farms, then most small farms would cease to exist, because our neighbors would sue us into oblivion. Not because we are doing anything as egregiously wrong as CAFOs, but because we cannot afford to defend against spurious lawsuits from city folks that have moved to the country.

tb_technical 3y ago
Everyone's voting you down, because nuance on the internet is difficult - as is admitting you're wrong about something. Everything this comment above says is also detailed in the book Sacred Cow. Large corporations are, again, the problem. But people come out of the woodwork to defend them under an article that vilifies them.
- dang 3y ago
  Everyone's not voting voakbasda down—the comment has been heavily upvoted. You may have run into the contrarian dynamic: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22contrarian%20dynamic%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
  - tb_technical 3y ago
    Earlier yesterday, the comment was heavily voted down before myself and another voted it up. It's why there were two comments talking about it being voted down. Did you notice they were both posted within a minute of each other? It's deleted now, but this did happen
    - dang 3y ago
      It got one downvote before you voted it back up 7 minutes later. That's not "everyone", that's literally "a single downvote showed up for a few minutes before 12 upvotes in a row came in". What I mean by the contrarian dynamic is that often, negative feedback shows up first, only to produce a flood of objections by people saying some variant of "I can't believe this place is so negative". This happens so frequently that I think it must be a product of something hard-wired in the medium* and something hard-wired in humans. Like any predictable mechanism, this one tends to be bad for discussion quality. * I mean the medium of the internet forum
      - tb_technical 3y ago
        I'm pretty sure the score was -2 before myself and another person commented on it. Not that it matters. My perception at the time of posting the comment was correct. If I could edit the wording now, I would, but I can't. Weird flex.
        dang 3y ago
        Not to pile on, but in case it's interesting: there had been one downvote and upvote by the time you commented. The lowest the score ever reached was 0.
aapl88889 3y ago
[flagged]
- AlbertCory 3y ago
  [flagged]
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  The renter yuppies of HN hate farmers, even (particularly) small farmers, because they look at farmers and see land owners who probably don't share their political values; they see kulaks. You can tell because the criticism of farmers is always paired with allusions to their party affiliation, talking about 'swing states' and lobbying.
  - dang 3y ago
    This is quite a case of imagination. One user downvoted, and that's hardly "the renter yuppies of HN"... or any other collective.
- dang 3y ago
  One user downvoted, and I don't think it behooves anyone to mindread them. Don't forget that misclicks are a thing.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Small farms and big farms both spread fertilizer on their land at similar rates per acre. We only had 50 head of cattle, but it was still enough to cause algae blooms on the local creek. Proper regulations are good protection against lawsuits. Without regulations your responsibilities to keep the environment clean are vague. OTOH, following regulations in good faith makes your responsibilities very clear.
- taeric 3y ago
  50 cattle sounds like a large farm? Are there technical breakdowns on sizes?
  - danaris 3y ago
    50 cattle is definitely not a large farm. I'm not sure what you're thinking would count as "small".
    - taeric 3y ago
      That is why I'm asking? A quick search shows that would need about 50 acres of land? That is pretty a pretty large amount of land. What is a "small" farm?
      - defrost 3y ago
        It varies by country and agricultural use type (primarily cattle, mainly grain, etc.) Where I am, the grain district of Western Australia: ALMOST two-thirds of the farming population in the agricultural area of Western Australia live on farms of 1,000 acres or more in size. and The average farm size in WA is approximately 4500 hectares (11,000 acres). https://library.dpird.wa.gov.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3818&context=journal_agriculture4 https://library.dpird.wa.gov.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=... https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/sites/gateway/files/Grain%20producing%20capacity.docx https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/sites/gateway/files/Grain%20prod... Both those statements are true, most farms are greater than 1K acres, and the average size of a grain farm is 11,000 acres. My neighbour shoots ULR targets at 5,000 yards across his property. Most of the grain growing here is family dynasty type ownership. Cattle stations get much much bigger.

tb_technical 3y ago

Everyone's voting you down, because nuance on the internet is difficult - as is admitting you're wrong about something. Everything this comment above says is also detailed in the book Sacred Cow. Large corporations are, again, the problem. But people come out of the woodwork to defend them under an article that vilifies them.

dang 3y ago
Everyone's not voting voakbasda down—the comment has been heavily upvoted. You may have run into the contrarian dynamic: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=%22contrarian%20dynamic%22&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
- tb_technical 3y ago
  Earlier yesterday, the comment was heavily voted down before myself and another voted it up. It's why there were two comments talking about it being voted down. Did you notice they were both posted within a minute of each other? It's deleted now, but this did happen
  - dang 3y ago
    It got one downvote before you voted it back up 7 minutes later. That's not "everyone", that's literally "a single downvote showed up for a few minutes before 12 upvotes in a row came in". What I mean by the contrarian dynamic is that often, negative feedback shows up first, only to produce a flood of objections by people saying some variant of "I can't believe this place is so negative". This happens so frequently that I think it must be a product of something hard-wired in the medium* and something hard-wired in humans. Like any predictable mechanism, this one tends to be bad for discussion quality. * I mean the medium of the internet forum
    - tb_technical 3y ago
      I'm pretty sure the score was -2 before myself and another person commented on it. Not that it matters. My perception at the time of posting the comment was correct. If I could edit the wording now, I would, but I can't. Weird flex.
      - dang 3y ago
        Not to pile on, but in case it's interesting: there had been one downvote and upvote by the time you commented. The lowest the score ever reached was 0.

aapl88889 3y ago

[flagged]

AlbertCory 3y ago
[flagged]
mcpackieh 3y ago
The renter yuppies of HN hate farmers, even (particularly) small farmers, because they look at farmers and see land owners who probably don't share their political values; they see kulaks. You can tell because the criticism of farmers is always paired with allusions to their party affiliation, talking about 'swing states' and lobbying.
- dang 3y ago
  This is quite a case of imagination. One user downvoted, and that's hardly "the renter yuppies of HN"... or any other collective.
dang 3y ago
One user downvoted, and I don't think it behooves anyone to mindread them. Don't forget that misclicks are a thing.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Small farms and big farms both spread fertilizer on their land at similar rates per acre. We only had 50 head of cattle, but it was still enough to cause algae blooms on the local creek. Proper regulations are good protection against lawsuits. Without regulations your responsibilities to keep the environment clean are vague. OTOH, following regulations in good faith makes your responsibilities very clear.

taeric 3y ago
50 cattle sounds like a large farm? Are there technical breakdowns on sizes?
- danaris 3y ago
  50 cattle is definitely not a large farm. I'm not sure what you're thinking would count as "small".
  - taeric 3y ago
    That is why I'm asking? A quick search shows that would need about 50 acres of land? That is pretty a pretty large amount of land. What is a "small" farm?
    - defrost 3y ago
      It varies by country and agricultural use type (primarily cattle, mainly grain, etc.) Where I am, the grain district of Western Australia: ALMOST two-thirds of the farming population in the agricultural area of Western Australia live on farms of 1,000 acres or more in size. and The average farm size in WA is approximately 4500 hectares (11,000 acres). https://library.dpird.wa.gov.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3818&context=journal_agriculture4 https://library.dpird.wa.gov.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=... https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/sites/gateway/files/Grain%20producing%20capacity.docx https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/sites/gateway/files/Grain%20prod... Both those statements are true, most farms are greater than 1K acres, and the average size of a grain farm is 11,000 acres. My neighbour shoots ULR targets at 5,000 yards across his property. Most of the grain growing here is family dynasty type ownership. Cattle stations get much much bigger.