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Science is one method for getting knowledge. Other methods are "see for yourself" and "get it from an authority". All have their pros and cons. One downside

Science is one method for getting knowledge. Other methods are "see for yourself" and "get it from an authority". All have their pros and cons. One downside of science is its reliance upon communication. It shares its faults. This becomes especially glaring when addressing uncommon perspectives. I think it's the wrong tool for that job. Like "spiritual" stuff. The perspective is often so uncommon that any discussion may as well be fiction.

HPsquared 3y ago
Also "deduce it for yourself"
haswell 3y ago
> Like "spiritual" stuff. The perspective is so uncommon that any perspective under discussion may as well be fiction. This highlights the range of interpretations of “spirituality”. There is the explicitly religious kind. The “woo woo” non-religious but still metaphysical kind. As far as I can tell, this paper is focused more on the kind of spirituality that has nothing to do with either of those. The kind that comes from the realization that for all of the scientific progress we’ve made, none of it actually explains what anything is. I think it was Roger Penrose who said something like “I’m a materialist, but dislike the word because we have no idea what material actually is”. False dichotomies between science and spirituality are common in pop culture, probably because of the massive amount of baggage brought by untenable religious and metaphysical beliefs. But for many scientifically minded people, “spirituality” is both an outcome of their growing depth of knowledge, and the force driving them to dig deeper. To me, spirituality is about pausing the labeling and interpreting part of my brain, and realizing how intrinsically connected I am to the first moments of the universe. Appreciating the absolutely ridiculous improbability of my existence. In essence, leaning in to the awe and wonder experience that’s available and magnified by a growing scientific understanding. Reducing existence to a series of increasingly more granular labels that still barely scratch the surface of what’s going on is its own form of fiction. It’s incredibly useful fiction that helps us understand and navigate ever more complex aspects of reality, but is still fundamentally just a simplified map of an indescribably complex territory.
- swayvil 3y ago
  So you think the article uses the term "spiritual" differently? I confess, did not read. I'm getting kinda alienated from reading. Anything more than a sentence and I drift. But ya. You know what helps you understand the taste of a lemon? Here's a clue, it ain't a deep complex story about a lemon.
  - haswell 3y ago
    From the abstract: > Scientists often refer to spiritual experiences with science. This research addresses this unique component of science attitudes — spirituality of science: feelings of meaning, awe, and connection derived through scientific ideas. Three studies (N = 1,197) examined individual differences in Spirituality of Science (SoS) and its benefits for well-being, meaning, and learning.
    - swayvil 3y ago
      Gimme the short version.
- nprateem 3y ago
  > To me, spirituality is about pausing the labeling and interpreting part of my brain, and... No need for "and", just stick with that.
  - serialNumber 3y ago
    This comment is a beautiful example of just that - if I read this correctly, you're already judging them for their take on spirituality . Please correct me if I'm wrong - but personally, approaching new ideas with an open mind, instead of a mind that has already come to a judgement, has served me very well .
    - nprateem 3y ago
      Not judging, just pointing out it's possible to go further and just hang out in the present moment. That can bring the experience to daily activities, which can bring about surprising changes. In fact, it's not even necessary to switch off thinking. The key is to give no value to thoughts that come up (unless you're actually engaged in focussed thinking, eg intentional planning, problem solving, etc), or emotions. It changes everything. An example: I've been suffering from melancholic thoughts for some months, carrying a heaviness with me I couldn't shed. I recently decided I'd had enough and I didn't want them any more. I decided they were nothing to do with me, much in the same way as I'd treat a fart - some process that occurs but which passes and I forget about. This has resulted in a subtle but significant transformation. The melancholy has been replaced by something difficult to describe but no longer heavy and depressing, and at times elating.
thenerdhead 3y ago
"authorities" are experts at best. Famously said by just about every science educator.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
epgui 3y ago
Uhh no… Almost by definition, science encompasses all (valid) methods for getting knowledge.
- swayvil 3y ago
  Just out of curiosity, what's an example of an invalid method for getting knowledge?

HPsquared 3y ago

Also "deduce it for yourself"

haswell 3y ago

> Like "spiritual" stuff. The perspective is so uncommon that any perspective under discussion may as well be fiction. This highlights the range of interpretations of “spirituality”. There is the explicitly religious kind. The “woo woo” non-religious but still metaphysical kind. As far as I can tell, this paper is focused more on the kind of spirituality that has nothing to do with either of those. The kind that comes from the realization that for all of the scientific progress we’ve made, none of it actually explains what anything is. I think it was Roger Penrose who said something like “I’m a materialist, but dislike the word because we have no idea what material actually is”. False dichotomies between science and spirituality are common in pop culture, probably because of the massive amount of baggage brought by untenable religious and metaphysical beliefs. But for many scientifically minded people, “spirituality” is both an outcome of their growing depth of knowledge, and the force driving them to dig deeper. To me, spirituality is about pausing the labeling and interpreting part of my brain, and realizing how intrinsically connected I am to the first moments of the universe. Appreciating the absolutely ridiculous improbability of my existence. In essence, leaning in to the awe and wonder experience that’s available and magnified by a growing scientific understanding. Reducing existence to a series of increasingly more granular labels that still barely scratch the surface of what’s going on is its own form of fiction. It’s incredibly useful fiction that helps us understand and navigate ever more complex aspects of reality, but is still fundamentally just a simplified map of an indescribably complex territory.

swayvil 3y ago
So you think the article uses the term "spiritual" differently? I confess, did not read. I'm getting kinda alienated from reading. Anything more than a sentence and I drift. But ya. You know what helps you understand the taste of a lemon? Here's a clue, it ain't a deep complex story about a lemon.
- haswell 3y ago
  From the abstract: > Scientists often refer to spiritual experiences with science. This research addresses this unique component of science attitudes — spirituality of science: feelings of meaning, awe, and connection derived through scientific ideas. Three studies (N = 1,197) examined individual differences in Spirituality of Science (SoS) and its benefits for well-being, meaning, and learning.
  - swayvil 3y ago
    Gimme the short version.
nprateem 3y ago
> To me, spirituality is about pausing the labeling and interpreting part of my brain, and... No need for "and", just stick with that.
- serialNumber 3y ago
  This comment is a beautiful example of just that - if I read this correctly, you're already judging them for their take on spirituality . Please correct me if I'm wrong - but personally, approaching new ideas with an open mind, instead of a mind that has already come to a judgement, has served me very well .
  - nprateem 3y ago
    Not judging, just pointing out it's possible to go further and just hang out in the present moment. That can bring the experience to daily activities, which can bring about surprising changes. In fact, it's not even necessary to switch off thinking. The key is to give no value to thoughts that come up (unless you're actually engaged in focussed thinking, eg intentional planning, problem solving, etc), or emotions. It changes everything. An example: I've been suffering from melancholic thoughts for some months, carrying a heaviness with me I couldn't shed. I recently decided I'd had enough and I didn't want them any more. I decided they were nothing to do with me, much in the same way as I'd treat a fart - some process that occurs but which passes and I forget about. This has resulted in a subtle but significant transformation. The melancholy has been replaced by something difficult to describe but no longer heavy and depressing, and at times elating.

thenerdhead 3y ago

"authorities" are experts at best. Famously said by just about every science educator.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

epgui 3y ago

Uhh no… Almost by definition, science encompasses all (valid) methods for getting knowledge.

swayvil 3y ago
Just out of curiosity, what's an example of an invalid method for getting knowledge?