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I'm sorry I have seen the thread leads, and I cannot agree with them and think the replies do not get enough notice. Right to repair should be a full set of in

I'm sorry I have seen the thread leads, and I cannot agree with them and think the replies do not get enough notice. Right to repair should be a full set of instructions for "everything" are available. That's it. Give the full specs for everything. If it's code reliant(which wtf), what does it require to work? That's. Fucking. It. We give you rules to say peeps cannot sell what you made, you make it so we can repair it. If you don't like it, sell fucking service.

bagels 3y ago
I think the biggest problem with Tesla is access to parts, much of the process (minus the computer bits) are easy to reverse engineer.
- naremu 3y ago
  Even the need to "reverse engineer" something that you paid for and ostensibly own, though, is overwhelmingly insulting and in some ways (though obviously not technically legally, ethically) is basically directly challenging public perception of property ownership. It's not even like it's say, a watch that I might actually need specialist equipment or knowledge to repair/maintain. It's actually something I'm expected to at some point, be required of me, but is tactically not provided to me as to benefit a private entity. And arguments can be made about who's ethical and economical burden it is to make documentation, but the fact is it'd just save an overall immense amount of societal time and productivity for those who already have the potential to provide documentation, to do so. And so the expectation that we are left to our own devices on various forums and social media websites that may or may not be SEO'd by google to be brought to our attention with the right combination of keywords. Is kind of baffling, to be honest. If it's easy for us, it should be even easier and quicker for them. Especially when most in many countries are unfortunately reliant on such things, many of them may not be reverse engineerers, or even versed in google-fu.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    >It's not even like it's say, a watch that I might actually need specialist equipment or knowledge to repair/maintain. If it doesn't need specialist knowledge then why are you asking for people to release their knowledge on how it works? Just use your general knowledge on how it works then.
candiddevmike 3y ago
Right to repair eventually runs head first into security and encryption--how do you allow right to repair and TLS, encryption, secure computing, etc to coexist? Get rid of IoT black boxes like Google Homes? Allow Linux on Xbox? How do you create secure platforms while also giving consumers the keys to their devices? (FWIW I'm not advocating against right to repair, I actually hope it helps to get rid of black box IoT devices. My device, my keys, etc)
- prepend 3y ago
  This is pretty simple to engineer. With TLS it’s just authing the server, accept any income connections. Support basic authentication. For home devices don’t require TLS. I don’t run TLS on my home network. I’m remote, I get devices, I accept that risk. TLS is not required for security. For encryption just design so customers can swap out keys. The biggest problem is designing cloud in the loop so they can mine data. This needs to stop.
- FloatArtifact 3y ago
  Think of it as like Android and unlocking the bootloader. There's a warning that it's running on modified system.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    Except this Android can mow down a farmers market full of people if you get things wrong.
    - prasadjoglekar 3y ago
      For which we already have laws to deal with. Even without modification, the car can be used to mow people down.
    - wizee 3y ago
      People have been repairing their own cars for a century, and the world functioned just fine with it. This locking down is a recent phenomenon. Your car is not going to mow down people just because someone other than the dealer serviced it.
starbase 3y ago
> Right to repair should be a full set of instructions for "everything" Tesla provides that (and more) for free: • Service Manual, Parts Manual, and Body Repair • Tooling Catalog and Wiring Diagrams • Service Bulletins • Labor Codes and Times • Service Mode Diagnostic Software (on the touchscreen)
- mozman 3y ago
  Does Tesla sell parts? If so, do you need a Tesla tool to program/activate them? Electronics fail more often than mechanical parts and even today with independent auto shops having access to manufacturers programming software you still have to go to the dealer for some things
  - starbase 3y ago
    Yeah they sell parts at service centers or you can order through the app. Most parts pair automatically and can be calibrated by putting the vehicle in Service Mode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e1_xr81l38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e1_xr81l38 Repair shops that buy high voltage batteries have to pass safety training.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    Assuming they do, that's not enough. There needs to be a market for non-Tesla-built parts that will nonetheless work in the cars. We shouldn't allow manufacturers to lock things down so that becomes impossible (or even illegal, when the DMCA comes into play).
- callalex 3y ago
  You can’t even replace a smashed window on a Tesla without Elon’s personal blessing.
- revscat 3y ago
  Where? I found press releases stating some of this, but none of the actual docs/software.
  - 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jandrese 3y ago
Remember the old days when you would open up an appliance and there would be the full circuit diagram pasted on the inside of the case? Unfortunately VLSI kinda killed this off, nowadays everything is crammed into a single chip that you can't repair.

bagels 3y ago

I think the biggest problem with Tesla is access to parts, much of the process (minus the computer bits) are easy to reverse engineer.

naremu 3y ago
Even the need to "reverse engineer" something that you paid for and ostensibly own, though, is overwhelmingly insulting and in some ways (though obviously not technically legally, ethically) is basically directly challenging public perception of property ownership. It's not even like it's say, a watch that I might actually need specialist equipment or knowledge to repair/maintain. It's actually something I'm expected to at some point, be required of me, but is tactically not provided to me as to benefit a private entity. And arguments can be made about who's ethical and economical burden it is to make documentation, but the fact is it'd just save an overall immense amount of societal time and productivity for those who already have the potential to provide documentation, to do so. And so the expectation that we are left to our own devices on various forums and social media websites that may or may not be SEO'd by google to be brought to our attention with the right combination of keywords. Is kind of baffling, to be honest. If it's easy for us, it should be even easier and quicker for them. Especially when most in many countries are unfortunately reliant on such things, many of them may not be reverse engineerers, or even versed in google-fu.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  >It's not even like it's say, a watch that I might actually need specialist equipment or knowledge to repair/maintain. If it doesn't need specialist knowledge then why are you asking for people to release their knowledge on how it works? Just use your general knowledge on how it works then.

candiddevmike 3y ago

Right to repair eventually runs head first into security and encryption--how do you allow right to repair and TLS, encryption, secure computing, etc to coexist? Get rid of IoT black boxes like Google Homes? Allow Linux on Xbox? How do you create secure platforms while also giving consumers the keys to their devices? (FWIW I'm not advocating against right to repair, I actually hope it helps to get rid of black box IoT devices. My device, my keys, etc)

prepend 3y ago
This is pretty simple to engineer. With TLS it’s just authing the server, accept any income connections. Support basic authentication. For home devices don’t require TLS. I don’t run TLS on my home network. I’m remote, I get devices, I accept that risk. TLS is not required for security. For encryption just design so customers can swap out keys. The biggest problem is designing cloud in the loop so they can mine data. This needs to stop.
FloatArtifact 3y ago
Think of it as like Android and unlocking the bootloader. There's a warning that it's running on modified system.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  Except this Android can mow down a farmers market full of people if you get things wrong.
  - prasadjoglekar 3y ago
    For which we already have laws to deal with. Even without modification, the car can be used to mow people down.
  - wizee 3y ago
    People have been repairing their own cars for a century, and the world functioned just fine with it. This locking down is a recent phenomenon. Your car is not going to mow down people just because someone other than the dealer serviced it.

starbase 3y ago

> Right to repair should be a full set of instructions for "everything" Tesla provides that (and more) for free: • Service Manual, Parts Manual, and Body Repair • Tooling Catalog and Wiring Diagrams • Service Bulletins • Labor Codes and Times • Service Mode Diagnostic Software (on the touchscreen)

mozman 3y ago
Does Tesla sell parts? If so, do you need a Tesla tool to program/activate them? Electronics fail more often than mechanical parts and even today with independent auto shops having access to manufacturers programming software you still have to go to the dealer for some things
- starbase 3y ago
  Yeah they sell parts at service centers or you can order through the app. Most parts pair automatically and can be calibrated by putting the vehicle in Service Mode: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e1_xr81l38 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e1_xr81l38 Repair shops that buy high voltage batteries have to pass safety training.
- kelnos 3y ago
  Assuming they do, that's not enough. There needs to be a market for non-Tesla-built parts that will nonetheless work in the cars. We shouldn't allow manufacturers to lock things down so that becomes impossible (or even illegal, when the DMCA comes into play).
callalex 3y ago
You can’t even replace a smashed window on a Tesla without Elon’s personal blessing.
revscat 3y ago
Where? I found press releases stating some of this, but none of the actual docs/software.
- 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jandrese 3y ago

Remember the old days when you would open up an appliance and there would be the full circuit diagram pasted on the inside of the case? Unfortunately VLSI kinda killed this off, nowadays everything is crammed into a single chip that you can't repair.