5 ms·

I volunteered in SAR for five years, and the topic of W3W would occasionally come up. For me, it’s just already damn hard to make sure you can hear numbers cor

I volunteered in SAR for five years, and the topic of W3W would occasionally come up. For me, it’s just already damn hard to make sure you can hear numbers correctly over the radio. In marginal conditions, it’s a hell of a lot easier to use numbers (and requires less time due to not having to repeat or ask for clarification). Do I really want to be trying to say “arrows.midst.senses” over a handheld radio?

switch007 3y ago
SAR = Search and Rescue
PeterisP 3y ago
Especially since "arrows.midst.senses" and "arrow.midst.senses" are two different locations, and if you mishear it as "arrows.midst.sends", that's yet another different valid location. Really, there's all the research done (since the invention of early radio?) on what makes a phonetic alphabet or phonetic code usable in noisy conditions, and instead W3W effectively plants a field of rakes in front of blindfolded people.
- margalabargala 3y ago
  Or worse, "arrows.midst.senses" and "arrows.mist.senses"
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - gorlilla 3y ago
    Arrows.missed.census
permo-w 3y ago
poor implementation aside, the format has its advantages over numerical coordinates besides the greater public awareness of w3w amongst certain demographics compared to coordinates, they may be harder to hear, but it's much easier to read out three words correctly than it is 16-18 numbers the thing with words is that they're easy to hear in context, but take them out of context and they're often indecipherable perhaps a system that gives each square a coherent-sounding sentence could be tried, although I'm sure that would have its difficulties too
- inopinatus 3y ago
  Coherence is unfortunately a subjective matter, as in the phrase “too.much.butter” which is syntactically valid but has no comprehensible meaning.
  - permo-w 3y ago
    I enjoyed this
- thakoppno 3y ago
  The fifth decimal of a GPS coordinate resolves down to 1.1 meter. Ten numbers doesn’t sound much more difficult than three words to me.
  - mlyle 3y ago
    12.34567N 89.01234W is 14 digits, 2 points, and 2 signs or letters. Earth is about 2^49 square meters. If you want precision of ~8 square meters, you're going to need to convey 46 bits of information (or use an optimization that gives less resolution over oceans, etc, but that's only going to be a small win-- a bit or two). 46/3.3 = 14 digits, but the latitude/longitude coding is a little less efficient because it's not uniform. A plus code does it in 11 characters (not including the plus) worth each 4.32 bits =~ 47.5 bits.
    - permo-w 3y ago
      if Earth sqm = 2^49: to address a single metre, we'd need 49 bits. log_10(2^49) = 14.75 so we'd need 15 spoken decimal digits for 1 sqm. for 8m do log_10(2^47)
      - mlyle 3y ago
        > if Earth sqm = 2^49: to address a single metre, we'd need 49 bits. Yes-- that's why I said it was 46 bits for an 8 square meter area (because this is about the size of area you care about for this problem-- W3W is 9 square meters). > for 8m do log_10(2^47) No, because 2^3 = 8, so one does log_10(2^(49-3)) and gets 13.8. 46 / 3.3 =~ 13.9 works because 1/log_10(2) =~ 3.3.
simonjgreen 3y ago
Very similar experience, decade in volunteer SAR with a lot of police and fire overlap. I hold exactly the same opinion as you, however what is very telling us that the police and fire services love it. I think that's because of the accessibility of the system rather than the underlying algorithm or communication. I am also coming to see w3w locations written more and more as a more accessible alternative to coordinates, especially in land sales and forestry situations. I do particularly hate that government services and agencies are becoming reliant on a commercially licensed pattern. It does not tick the sustainability tickbox for me. I hate it as much as I love it.
pharmakom 3y ago
Can you suggest an iOS app that can give geo coordinates appropriate for S&R? Ideally whilst offline?
- sakjur 3y ago
  The built-in Compass app shows your longitude, latitude, and elevation in addition to providing heading.
charcircuit 3y ago
Why are you not sending text messages to each other if it is so hard to understand? You can have plenty of error correction to make sure the message always is correctly received.
- Mordisquitos 3y ago
  If they are in a situation in which they can send W3W coordinates by text message, then they are in a situation in which they can send ordinary numerical coordinates by text message.
  - charcircuit 3y ago
    I don't care what they use. I am stating they are using the wrong protocol if there is a chance to introduce errors when sending a message.
    - Mordisquitos 3y ago
      And I'm implying that there are situations where they cannot take the luxury of communicating by text with the extreme care required not to make the slightest typo in W3W.

switch007 3y ago

SAR = Search and Rescue

PeterisP 3y ago

Especially since "arrows.midst.senses" and "arrow.midst.senses" are two different locations, and if you mishear it as "arrows.midst.sends", that's yet another different valid location. Really, there's all the research done (since the invention of early radio?) on what makes a phonetic alphabet or phonetic code usable in noisy conditions, and instead W3W effectively plants a field of rakes in front of blindfolded people.

margalabargala 3y ago
Or worse, "arrows.midst.senses" and "arrows.mist.senses"
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gorlilla 3y ago
  Arrows.missed.census

permo-w 3y ago

poor implementation aside, the format has its advantages over numerical coordinates besides the greater public awareness of w3w amongst certain demographics compared to coordinates, they may be harder to hear, but it's much easier to read out three words correctly than it is 16-18 numbers the thing with words is that they're easy to hear in context, but take them out of context and they're often indecipherable perhaps a system that gives each square a coherent-sounding sentence could be tried, although I'm sure that would have its difficulties too

inopinatus 3y ago
Coherence is unfortunately a subjective matter, as in the phrase “too.much.butter” which is syntactically valid but has no comprehensible meaning.
- permo-w 3y ago
  I enjoyed this
thakoppno 3y ago
The fifth decimal of a GPS coordinate resolves down to 1.1 meter. Ten numbers doesn’t sound much more difficult than three words to me.
- mlyle 3y ago
  12.34567N 89.01234W is 14 digits, 2 points, and 2 signs or letters. Earth is about 2^49 square meters. If you want precision of ~8 square meters, you're going to need to convey 46 bits of information (or use an optimization that gives less resolution over oceans, etc, but that's only going to be a small win-- a bit or two). 46/3.3 = 14 digits, but the latitude/longitude coding is a little less efficient because it's not uniform. A plus code does it in 11 characters (not including the plus) worth each 4.32 bits =~ 47.5 bits.
  - permo-w 3y ago
    if Earth sqm = 2^49: to address a single metre, we'd need 49 bits. log_10(2^49) = 14.75 so we'd need 15 spoken decimal digits for 1 sqm. for 8m do log_10(2^47)
    - mlyle 3y ago
      > if Earth sqm = 2^49: to address a single metre, we'd need 49 bits. Yes-- that's why I said it was 46 bits for an 8 square meter area (because this is about the size of area you care about for this problem-- W3W is 9 square meters). > for 8m do log_10(2^47) No, because 2^3 = 8, so one does log_10(2^(49-3)) and gets 13.8. 46 / 3.3 =~ 13.9 works because 1/log_10(2) =~ 3.3.

simonjgreen 3y ago

Very similar experience, decade in volunteer SAR with a lot of police and fire overlap. I hold exactly the same opinion as you, however what is very telling us that the police and fire services love it. I think that's because of the accessibility of the system rather than the underlying algorithm or communication. I am also coming to see w3w locations written more and more as a more accessible alternative to coordinates, especially in land sales and forestry situations. I do particularly hate that government services and agencies are becoming reliant on a commercially licensed pattern. It does not tick the sustainability tickbox for me. I hate it as much as I love it.

pharmakom 3y ago

Can you suggest an iOS app that can give geo coordinates appropriate for S&R? Ideally whilst offline?

sakjur 3y ago
The built-in Compass app shows your longitude, latitude, and elevation in addition to providing heading.

charcircuit 3y ago

Why are you not sending text messages to each other if it is so hard to understand? You can have plenty of error correction to make sure the message always is correctly received.

Mordisquitos 3y ago
If they are in a situation in which they can send W3W coordinates by text message, then they are in a situation in which they can send ordinary numerical coordinates by text message.
- charcircuit 3y ago
  I don't care what they use. I am stating they are using the wrong protocol if there is a chance to introduce errors when sending a message.
  - Mordisquitos 3y ago
    And I'm implying that there are situations where they cannot take the luxury of communicating by text with the extreme care required not to make the slightest typo in W3W.