5 ms·

Access to data on the phone for example. Just from top of my head: camera, stored data, contacts, location, microphone... I am firmly in the browser-over-app c

by hef19898 3y ago

Access to data on the phone for example. Just from top of my head: camera, stored data, contacts, location, microphone... I am firmly in the browser-over-app camp. One of the reasons I have close to zero third party apps on my phones.

scarface_74 3y ago
And none of that information is available unless you explicitly give the app permission. On the other hand using standardized APIs, a web page can access everything you mentioned except for contacts
- hef19898 3y ago
  Good. And now how many people out there do look at app permissions exactly?
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    What do you mean look at them? If they mindlessly click yes to allow an app to have permission when it asks them, why wouldn’t they mindlessly click yes on the same confirmation on a website?
    - hef19898 3y ago
      You just showed so little worda why consumer protection laws are so god damn important.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        Yes because we really need to give the government more power…
        hef19898 3y ago
        When it comes to prtect from unhinged capitalism and greedy corporations, well, yes, we absolutely do.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        Only the government has a legalized monopoly on power. I can avoid any one tech company much easier than I can avoid government.
        dredmorbius 3y ago
        You're misquoting Max Weber's definition of government. The state's monopoly, qua Max Weber, is on the claim to the legitimate use of violence. That is, the right and legitimacy of that right, is restricted to the state, or an entity acting in the effective capacity of a state, whatever it happens to call itself. Absent this, one of three conditions exist: 1. There is no monopoly. In which case violence is widespread, and there is no state. 2. There is no legitimacy. In which case violence is capricious. 3. Some non-state power or agent assumes the monopoly on legitimate violence. In which case it becomes, by definition The State. The state's claim is to legitimacy. A capricious exercise would be an abrogation of legitimacy Weber, Max (1978). Roth, Guenther; Wittich, Claus (eds.). Economy and Society. Berkeley: U. California Press. p. 54. <https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mode/1up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mod...> There's an excellent explanation of the common misunderstanding in this episode of the Talking Politics podcast: <https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership> The misleading and abbreviated form that's frequently found online seems to have originated with Rothbard in the 1960s, and was further popularised by Nozick in the 1970s. It's now falsely accepted as a truth when in fact it is a gross misrepresentation and obscures the core principles Weber advanced.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        I see nothing about your explanation that says we should give the one entity that has the power to take away our liberties with violence more power then necessary.
- rwmj 3y ago
  Welcome to the app for my Fujifilm camera (only required because I wanted to update the firmware) that refuses to run unless you grant fine-grained location access. After upgrading the firmware I deleted the app because it has literally no other benefit.
  - OfSanguineFire 3y ago
    Support apps for digital cameras generally require location access since a feature that many customers want, is geotagging the photos. Only some camera models have a built-in GPS, while other models rely on the presence of a nearby smartphone to provide the coordinates for the photo. Apps are typically developed to support a whole range of models, so they need the location access to support the non-GPS-equipped models.
    - midasuni 3y ago
      If (have location) then geotag Else dontgeotag Rather than Else quit It’s not rocket science.
      - grotorea 3y ago
        Isn't that what Apple requires apps to do by the way? Does Fujifilm have an iOS version that does that and an Android version that quits?
        rwmj 3y ago
        This was the Android version. The Apple policy sounds more sensible. Even better would be a way to fake the permission (which I understand some non-Google Android variants allow).
  - tchebb 3y ago
    Did it update the firmware over Bluetooth? Up until Android 11, Android required fine location permission to perform Bluetooth scans[1] because knowledge of nearby devices can be used to derive location. [1] https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/bluetooth/permissions#declare-android11-or-lower https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/blue...
- rvba 3y ago
  You cant use the app if you dont give permission.
  - ansgri 3y ago
    I presume it’s mostly on Android, on iOS apps seem to not be approved if they don’t run without clearly optional permissions. One of my bank apps absolutely refused to run without having scanned the full filesystem of an Android phone, yet on iOS it requires nothing for all operations. Walled gardens with their HOA-like behaviors are bad in theory, but sometimes the gangsters in the streets are much worse.
- sneak 3y ago
  Nah; apps can share data. If you log in to a dedicated video browsing account in the YouTube app, Google Maps and Google Docs can now associate your YouTubing account with your work and personal accounts. The ad company can now connect your personal email correspondence, your browsing, your work documents, your work travel, your personal travel, and the videos you watch. Share link trackers give them parts of your social graph even if you don't share contacts permission, but they build that up ad hoc from your email contents anyway. The sandboxing inside of apps is mostly an illusion.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    You realize a website can do the same thing don’t you?
    - sneak 3y ago
      Only with third party cookies enabled, or if you don't use multiple profiles/containers. Sandboxing on the web is fairly good because it has to be. The holes deliberately punched in app sandboxing are the problem.
      - scarface_74 3y ago
        And they can still do enough via the server

scarface_74 3y ago

And none of that information is available unless you explicitly give the app permission. On the other hand using standardized APIs, a web page can access everything you mentioned except for contacts

hef19898 3y ago
Good. And now how many people out there do look at app permissions exactly?
- scarface_74 3y ago
  What do you mean look at them? If they mindlessly click yes to allow an app to have permission when it asks them, why wouldn’t they mindlessly click yes on the same confirmation on a website?
  - hef19898 3y ago
    You just showed so little worda why consumer protection laws are so god damn important.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      Yes because we really need to give the government more power…
      - hef19898 3y ago
        When it comes to prtect from unhinged capitalism and greedy corporations, well, yes, we absolutely do.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        Only the government has a legalized monopoly on power. I can avoid any one tech company much easier than I can avoid government.
        dredmorbius 3y ago
        You're misquoting Max Weber's definition of government. The state's monopoly, qua Max Weber, is on the claim to the legitimate use of violence. That is, the right and legitimacy of that right, is restricted to the state, or an entity acting in the effective capacity of a state, whatever it happens to call itself. Absent this, one of three conditions exist: 1. There is no monopoly. In which case violence is widespread, and there is no state. 2. There is no legitimacy. In which case violence is capricious. 3. Some non-state power or agent assumes the monopoly on legitimate violence. In which case it becomes, by definition The State. The state's claim is to legitimacy. A capricious exercise would be an abrogation of legitimacy Weber, Max (1978). Roth, Guenther; Wittich, Claus (eds.). Economy and Society. Berkeley: U. California Press. p. 54. <https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mode/1up?view=theater https://archive.org/details/economysociety00webe/page/54/mod...> There's an excellent explanation of the common misunderstanding in this episode of the Talking Politics podcast: <https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership https://play.acast.com/s/history-of-ideas/weberonleadership> The misleading and abbreviated form that's frequently found online seems to have originated with Rothbard in the 1960s, and was further popularised by Nozick in the 1970s. It's now falsely accepted as a truth when in fact it is a gross misrepresentation and obscures the core principles Weber advanced.
        scarface_74 3y ago
        I see nothing about your explanation that says we should give the one entity that has the power to take away our liberties with violence more power then necessary.
rwmj 3y ago
Welcome to the app for my Fujifilm camera (only required because I wanted to update the firmware) that refuses to run unless you grant fine-grained location access. After upgrading the firmware I deleted the app because it has literally no other benefit.
- OfSanguineFire 3y ago
  Support apps for digital cameras generally require location access since a feature that many customers want, is geotagging the photos. Only some camera models have a built-in GPS, while other models rely on the presence of a nearby smartphone to provide the coordinates for the photo. Apps are typically developed to support a whole range of models, so they need the location access to support the non-GPS-equipped models.
  - midasuni 3y ago
    If (have location) then geotag Else dontgeotag Rather than Else quit It’s not rocket science.
    - grotorea 3y ago
      Isn't that what Apple requires apps to do by the way? Does Fujifilm have an iOS version that does that and an Android version that quits?
      - rwmj 3y ago
        This was the Android version. The Apple policy sounds more sensible. Even better would be a way to fake the permission (which I understand some non-Google Android variants allow).
- tchebb 3y ago
  Did it update the firmware over Bluetooth? Up until Android 11, Android required fine location permission to perform Bluetooth scans[1] because knowledge of nearby devices can be used to derive location. [1] https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/bluetooth/permissions#declare-android11-or-lower https://developer.android.com/guide/topics/connectivity/blue...
rvba 3y ago
You cant use the app if you dont give permission.
- ansgri 3y ago
  I presume it’s mostly on Android, on iOS apps seem to not be approved if they don’t run without clearly optional permissions. One of my bank apps absolutely refused to run without having scanned the full filesystem of an Android phone, yet on iOS it requires nothing for all operations. Walled gardens with their HOA-like behaviors are bad in theory, but sometimes the gangsters in the streets are much worse.
sneak 3y ago
Nah; apps can share data. If you log in to a dedicated video browsing account in the YouTube app, Google Maps and Google Docs can now associate your YouTubing account with your work and personal accounts. The ad company can now connect your personal email correspondence, your browsing, your work documents, your work travel, your personal travel, and the videos you watch. Share link trackers give them parts of your social graph even if you don't share contacts permission, but they build that up ad hoc from your email contents anyway. The sandboxing inside of apps is mostly an illusion.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  You realize a website can do the same thing don’t you?
  - sneak 3y ago
    Only with third party cookies enabled, or if you don't use multiple profiles/containers. Sandboxing on the web is fairly good because it has to be. The holes deliberately punched in app sandboxing are the problem.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      And they can still do enough via the server