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> In fact, I've never even heard an unreasonable defense. I suspect like many things, there was some logic to the introduction. But it's just gotten to really

> In fact, I've never even heard an unreasonable defense. I suspect like many things, there was some logic to the introduction. But it's just gotten to really batshit levels that there is probably nothing to do but stop the practice. As I understand it, some of the origins were that for debts owed to the government, with the person not present in the country, it was much more practical to target assets that may exist within the country than try and get the individual. Even in the introduction in the criminal context, I sort of understand the logic. In criminal organizations, there are likely people profiting a lot, that have engineered enough doubt that proving their connection to the beyond a reasonable standard is so difficult. But meeting a preponderance of the evidence standard in the civil context to reclaim those assets I can understand the argument. So I think there are some bad and weak arguments, but they certainly don't outweigh what's happening now. I think one of the worst argument I heard for not returning the money, was the police department wasn't able to follow the judges order, because they deposited the money into a bank account and transferred to another agency. And they'll never be able to find the exact same bills again that they gave to the bank, so are unable to follow the court order to return the money they took to the rightful owner.

fnordpiglet 3y ago
Yes the basic premise for why people would support civil forfeiture is “due process let’s too many people ‘get away with it’ so we need an extrajudicial process”. It’s the same basic rationale that all freedoms are ultimately curtailed with - all those rules are inconvenient, let’s by pass them a little bit. Then the reason for the rules start to become readily apparent again. Then the rationale takes on the old “can’t make an omelet” refrain, as if the world revolves around punishing criminals and everyone need to accept the collateral damage. Personally I’m of the old “rather let a thousand guilty go free than punish a single innocent,” but I also don’t set policy.
westurner 3y ago
Civil forfeiture in the United States > History > Holder / Obama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... Account for the seized assets. Interledger Protocol works with any type of (digital) asset ledger; W3C ILP. The FTC CAT Consolidated Audit Trail system does not uniquely identify individual bills / [ledger] dollars, either FWIU. But are photons uniquely identifiable either Due process: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process : > Due process developed from clause 39 of Magna Carta in England. Reference to due process first appeared in a statutory rendition of clause 39 in 1354 thus: "No man of what state or condition he be, shall be put out of his lands or tenements nor taken, nor disinherited, nor put to death, without he be brought to answer by due process of law." [3] When English and American law gradually diverged, due process was not upheld in England but became incorporated in the US Constitution. Whether it's possible to disarm and incapacitate without larceny. Criminal Justice Reform > Arguments on criminal justice reform > Support for reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_reform_in_the_United_States#Support_for_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_reform_in_the... Save the children. School-to-prison pipeline > Alternative approaches, Mental Health: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline
- westurner 3y ago
  Articles 11, 17, 6 and 7 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights specify rights to Due Process of law, Property, and Equal Protection of such rights. Universal Declaration of Human Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... There are 549 translations of the UDHR. https://www.ohchr.org/en/search?f%5B0%5D=event_type_taxonomy_term_name%3AUniversal%20Declaration%20of%20Human%20Rights https://www.ohchr.org/en/search?f%5B0%5D=event_type_taxonomy... > Article 11: Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence. > No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed. > Article 17: Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. > No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property. > Article 7: All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

fnordpiglet 3y ago

Yes the basic premise for why people would support civil forfeiture is “due process let’s too many people ‘get away with it’ so we need an extrajudicial process”. It’s the same basic rationale that all freedoms are ultimately curtailed with - all those rules are inconvenient, let’s by pass them a little bit. Then the reason for the rules start to become readily apparent again. Then the rationale takes on the old “can’t make an omelet” refrain, as if the world revolves around punishing criminals and everyone need to accept the collateral damage. Personally I’m of the old “rather let a thousand guilty go free than punish a single innocent,” but I also don’t set policy.

westurner 3y ago

Civil forfeiture in the United States > History > Holder / Obama: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United... Account for the seized assets. Interledger Protocol works with any type of (digital) asset ledger; W3C ILP. The FTC CAT Consolidated Audit Trail system does not uniquely identify individual bills / [ledger] dollars, either FWIU. But are photons uniquely identifiable either Due process: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_process : > Due process developed from clause 39 of Magna Carta in England. Reference to due process first appeared in a statutory rendition of clause 39 in 1354 thus: "No man of what state or condition he be, shall be put out of his lands or tenements nor taken, nor disinherited, nor put to death, without he be brought to answer by due process of law." [3] When English and American law gradually diverged, due process was not upheld in England but became incorporated in the US Constitution. Whether it's possible to disarm and incapacitate without larceny. Criminal Justice Reform > Arguments on criminal justice reform > Support for reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_reform_in_the_United_States#Support_for_reform https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_justice_reform_in_the... Save the children. School-to-prison pipeline > Alternative approaches, Mental Health: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School-to-prison_pipeline

westurner 3y ago
Articles 11, 17, 6 and 7 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights specify rights to Due Process of law, Property, and Equal Protection of such rights. Universal Declaration of Human Rights: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human... https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma... There are 549 translations of the UDHR. https://www.ohchr.org/en/search?f%5B0%5D=event_type_taxonomy_term_name%3AUniversal%20Declaration%20of%20Human%20Rights https://www.ohchr.org/en/search?f%5B0%5D=event_type_taxonomy... > Article 11: Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence. > No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed. > Article 17: Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others. > No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property. > Article 7: All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.