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Honestly, what is the best strategy to confront this? Speaking out and protesting about injustice works in the US because the Bill of Rights guarantees Freedom

Honestly, what is the best strategy to confront this? Speaking out and protesting about injustice works in the US because the Bill of Rights guarantees Freedom of Speech. In totalitarian regimes, there is no such right for the people. There are no means by which we can combat MBS. Imagining that westerners protesting MBS on the internet might lead to any real positive change is a pipe dream. It won't stop the US government from trading with Saudi Arabia. It's more likely MBS will have access to Twitter/X blocked. Such a protest may backfire in the same way that protesting Donald Trump gave him more attention, with the main difference being, there is absolutely no legal mechanism by which MBS could be taken down. Such protests may only strengthen the image of power he has. Additionally, if MBS wanted to, he could easily use Saudi Arabia's resources to build their own Arab-centric version of X/Twitter.

viraptor 3y ago
Sometimes things go far enough that one may want to say "no, I'm completely against that" even if it means lost money or opportunities and no direct upsides. Not everyone will be up for that. Not everyone can afford to. But when it happens, I'm happy to keep it in mind and give my money to businesses that do want to treat people better.
rayiner 3y ago
What is this American moral universalism? Why would “we combat” or “take down” MBS? What the f—k business do we have weighing in on Saudi society? Also, do you know who is waiting in the wings behind MBS? It’s not anyone western liberals are going to like. And I’m not defending MBS—but the reason I dislike Saudi is that they do the exact same moral universalism to the rest of the Muslim world, exporting Wahhabism to moderate Muslim countries. I see no reason for the US to get into Crusades 2.0.
- dddssddd 3y ago
  you can't defend something grotesque then say i'm not defending him and be wiped clean of your previous gross comment.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    I don’t subscribe to the George W. Bush idea of “you’re with us or against us.” Saying that it’s not the role of US billionaires and corporations to weigh in about the affairs of sovereign foreign countries is not a defense of what’s happening in those foreign countries. It’s about people staying in their lane.
    - mthoms 3y ago
      The op was asking what we, as individuals, could do. You argued (very poorly) that we shouldn't do anything simply because it's none of our businesses. When pressed on that (here and elsewhere in this thread) you keep pivoting to talk about what the US government, billionaires and corporations should or shouldn't do. But that wasn't the question asked. I can only assume you keep pivoting to that angle because those are easier arguments to make and involve considerably less self-reflection.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        In pivoting to that angle because the article criticizes billionaire that owns a major media platform for not leveraging that power to criticize a sovereign country’s domestic laws.
        mthoms 3y ago
        Maybe start your own top level comment thread if you want to talk about that; You specifically replied to a person asking what they can do about it as an individual. Peacefully. You told them that it wasn’t their place to do anything. When asked to justify your position you invoked “Crusades 2.0” and George Bush. You’re being blatantly disingenuous.
        rayiner 3y ago
        You think individual citizens failing to mind their own business don’t fuel America’ “democracy and liberation” wars? Along with immoral and destructive economic sanctions on countries like Iran? And OP’s use of “we” and “taking down MBS” aren’t consistent with your characterization.
- mthoms 3y ago
  >What is this American moral universalism? Believing you shouldn't be brutally murdered for criticizing your government is not an American thing. >What the f—k business do we have weighing in on Saudi society? Some people believe basic human rights ought to be universal. Strange, I know. >I see no reason for the US to get into Crusades 2.0. Absolutely no one is suggesting that.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - mikeyouse 3y ago
      Surely you’re not justifying multi-decade sentences for insults? Or execution for retweets? I don’t think opposing those things falls into the category of “white people” human rights…
      - rayiner 3y ago
        Can I defended it personally? No. But I was raised in Virginia and won’t even concede the federalists were right. However, it’s none of my business how Saudi society is structured. Nobody came from the outside and imposed that monarchy on them. The country is a closely knit collection of families with a vast imported non-citizen workforce. We can’t conceive of how their society works. “Human rights” in general arises from a conception of the worth of the individual relative to the collective that’s distinctly rooted in European culture. And even within that culture it’s a relatively recent development. European countries prosecuted such crimes well into the late 1800s, although usually not with the death penalty. (But Islam is also much more accepting of the death penalty.)
        mthoms 3y ago
        You acknowledge that the practice is morally indefensible but at the same time you're actively trying to convince others they shouldn't care. What a truly baffling (and concerning) serious of comments.
- spookie 3y ago
  OP says that "combating" while living abroad is useless, it's arguing in favour of something else. It also points out how hypocritical it is to trade with those who don't uphold democratic values. If you want to be beheaded by stating your opinions online, be my guest. But, personally, I would trust my country more, if it didn't aid financially those who bring terror upon their people. It's easier to trust it that way. Public beheadings are acts of propaganda and to instill fear among the population. They only serve that purpose.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
American laws don't apply outside the US anyway. I don't care much for Musk or Twitter but in this case he's not wrong. Saudi Arabia is a sovereign country. Take it up with the Biden administration if you want American foreign policy to change- but we all know it won't.
ksaj 3y ago
I have worked a few times in Riyadh (one time for an 8-month stint!) and one thing that rather shocked me is that capital punishment is done publicly, and it draws huge crowds. Literally you can't even drive by the square because the entire area is packed with spectators there only to see the hand and head choppings. Also, if you fight for this one person, you have to realize there are several put to death or getting their hands chopped off (for theft, etc) every week that are not being rallied for. I believe it was Mondays, but it's more than a decade ago now, so I may not remember the specific day. But yea, it was a family entertainment event. I myself never went because I find the whole idea abhorrent. A number of people I was working with there wouldn't miss it for the world. Working there gave me a whole perspective on totalitarian societies that I had not expected. I'm glad I don't live in one.
- spookie 3y ago
  That's... I don't have words. It's saddening. I really don't understand why one would go see such a thing, it's clearly meant to input fear on the people.
  - somerandomqaguy 3y ago
    IIRC executions for traitors on Tower Hill in London were oft public as well. The way the Beefeaters tell the story, it was partly as warning but it genuinely is just as a day for family entertainment as well, similar to how ksaj is saying. Come out as a day for a picnic or buying snacks from various vendor and to watch a head roll. How true it is, who's to say. I find it rather plausible though.
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      There's a song in the operetta "Candide" called "Auto Da Fe (What a Day)" that expresses the joy of the crowds in watching the Auto Da Fes (Acts of faith) of the Spanish Inquisition wherein people were forced to perform public acts of penance for their religious sins or heresies, up to burning at the stake. It's a funny song in its irony, and I'm sure Votaire would have appreciated the treatment that Bernstein gave it. That is to say that this sort of thing is not particularly unheard of. The cultural software of some modern countries may be a bit more progressed than others, but the human hardware of at least a significant portion of the world seems inclined to delight in punishment of those perceived as sinful.
justapassenger 3y ago
You can’t pull “free speech absolutist” card when it costs you nothing and is your stated reason for protecting insurrectionists, fascist and racist content on your platform, while keeping quiet when your buddies, who gave you billions of dollars, kill people who use your platform. Is there a great strategy to deal with saudis? No, I’m with you in that, there’s not. But it just shows how full of shit Musk is. He’s a high school bully, who talks when talk is cheap, attacks weak ones and back down immediately when someone actually confronts him.

viraptor 3y ago

Sometimes things go far enough that one may want to say "no, I'm completely against that" even if it means lost money or opportunities and no direct upsides. Not everyone will be up for that. Not everyone can afford to. But when it happens, I'm happy to keep it in mind and give my money to businesses that do want to treat people better.

rayiner 3y ago

What is this American moral universalism? Why would “we combat” or “take down” MBS? What the f—k business do we have weighing in on Saudi society? Also, do you know who is waiting in the wings behind MBS? It’s not anyone western liberals are going to like. And I’m not defending MBS—but the reason I dislike Saudi is that they do the exact same moral universalism to the rest of the Muslim world, exporting Wahhabism to moderate Muslim countries. I see no reason for the US to get into Crusades 2.0.

dddssddd 3y ago
you can't defend something grotesque then say i'm not defending him and be wiped clean of your previous gross comment.
- rayiner 3y ago
  I don’t subscribe to the George W. Bush idea of “you’re with us or against us.” Saying that it’s not the role of US billionaires and corporations to weigh in about the affairs of sovereign foreign countries is not a defense of what’s happening in those foreign countries. It’s about people staying in their lane.
  - mthoms 3y ago
    The op was asking what we, as individuals, could do. You argued (very poorly) that we shouldn't do anything simply because it's none of our businesses. When pressed on that (here and elsewhere in this thread) you keep pivoting to talk about what the US government, billionaires and corporations should or shouldn't do. But that wasn't the question asked. I can only assume you keep pivoting to that angle because those are easier arguments to make and involve considerably less self-reflection.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      In pivoting to that angle because the article criticizes billionaire that owns a major media platform for not leveraging that power to criticize a sovereign country’s domestic laws.
      - mthoms 3y ago
        Maybe start your own top level comment thread if you want to talk about that; You specifically replied to a person asking what they can do about it as an individual. Peacefully. You told them that it wasn’t their place to do anything. When asked to justify your position you invoked “Crusades 2.0” and George Bush. You’re being blatantly disingenuous.
        rayiner 3y ago
        You think individual citizens failing to mind their own business don’t fuel America’ “democracy and liberation” wars? Along with immoral and destructive economic sanctions on countries like Iran? And OP’s use of “we” and “taking down MBS” aren’t consistent with your characterization.
mthoms 3y ago
>What is this American moral universalism? Believing you shouldn't be brutally murdered for criticizing your government is not an American thing. >What the f—k business do we have weighing in on Saudi society? Some people believe basic human rights ought to be universal. Strange, I know. >I see no reason for the US to get into Crusades 2.0. Absolutely no one is suggesting that.
- rayiner 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - mikeyouse 3y ago
    Surely you’re not justifying multi-decade sentences for insults? Or execution for retweets? I don’t think opposing those things falls into the category of “white people” human rights…
    - rayiner 3y ago
      Can I defended it personally? No. But I was raised in Virginia and won’t even concede the federalists were right. However, it’s none of my business how Saudi society is structured. Nobody came from the outside and imposed that monarchy on them. The country is a closely knit collection of families with a vast imported non-citizen workforce. We can’t conceive of how their society works. “Human rights” in general arises from a conception of the worth of the individual relative to the collective that’s distinctly rooted in European culture. And even within that culture it’s a relatively recent development. European countries prosecuted such crimes well into the late 1800s, although usually not with the death penalty. (But Islam is also much more accepting of the death penalty.)
      - mthoms 3y ago
        You acknowledge that the practice is morally indefensible but at the same time you're actively trying to convince others they shouldn't care. What a truly baffling (and concerning) serious of comments.
spookie 3y ago
OP says that "combating" while living abroad is useless, it's arguing in favour of something else. It also points out how hypocritical it is to trade with those who don't uphold democratic values. If you want to be beheaded by stating your opinions online, be my guest. But, personally, I would trust my country more, if it didn't aid financially those who bring terror upon their people. It's easier to trust it that way. Public beheadings are acts of propaganda and to instill fear among the population. They only serve that purpose.

WeylandYutani 3y ago

American laws don't apply outside the US anyway. I don't care much for Musk or Twitter but in this case he's not wrong. Saudi Arabia is a sovereign country. Take it up with the Biden administration if you want American foreign policy to change- but we all know it won't.

ksaj 3y ago

I have worked a few times in Riyadh (one time for an 8-month stint!) and one thing that rather shocked me is that capital punishment is done publicly, and it draws huge crowds. Literally you can't even drive by the square because the entire area is packed with spectators there only to see the hand and head choppings. Also, if you fight for this one person, you have to realize there are several put to death or getting their hands chopped off (for theft, etc) every week that are not being rallied for. I believe it was Mondays, but it's more than a decade ago now, so I may not remember the specific day. But yea, it was a family entertainment event. I myself never went because I find the whole idea abhorrent. A number of people I was working with there wouldn't miss it for the world. Working there gave me a whole perspective on totalitarian societies that I had not expected. I'm glad I don't live in one.

spookie 3y ago
That's... I don't have words. It's saddening. I really don't understand why one would go see such a thing, it's clearly meant to input fear on the people.
- somerandomqaguy 3y ago
  IIRC executions for traitors on Tower Hill in London were oft public as well. The way the Beefeaters tell the story, it was partly as warning but it genuinely is just as a day for family entertainment as well, similar to how ksaj is saying. Come out as a day for a picnic or buying snacks from various vendor and to watch a head roll. How true it is, who's to say. I find it rather plausible though.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    There's a song in the operetta "Candide" called "Auto Da Fe (What a Day)" that expresses the joy of the crowds in watching the Auto Da Fes (Acts of faith) of the Spanish Inquisition wherein people were forced to perform public acts of penance for their religious sins or heresies, up to burning at the stake. It's a funny song in its irony, and I'm sure Votaire would have appreciated the treatment that Bernstein gave it. That is to say that this sort of thing is not particularly unheard of. The cultural software of some modern countries may be a bit more progressed than others, but the human hardware of at least a significant portion of the world seems inclined to delight in punishment of those perceived as sinful.

justapassenger 3y ago

You can’t pull “free speech absolutist” card when it costs you nothing and is your stated reason for protecting insurrectionists, fascist and racist content on your platform, while keeping quiet when your buddies, who gave you billions of dollars, kill people who use your platform. Is there a great strategy to deal with saudis? No, I’m with you in that, there’s not. But it just shows how full of shit Musk is. He’s a high school bully, who talks when talk is cheap, attacks weak ones and back down immediately when someone actually confronts him.