7 ms·

Elon Musk Silent on Man Sentenced to Death for His Tweets

41 points by davidbarker 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
catchnear4321 3y ago
who bought what exactly? https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prince-alwaleed-becomes-twitters-second-largest-shareholder/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prin... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/28/saudis-kingdom-holding-company-to-maintain-twitter-stake https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/28/saudis-kingdom-hol... https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-twitter-deal-extra-7-billion-backing-saudi-prince-2022-5?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-twitter-deal-extra...
1MachineElf 3y ago
Honestly, what is the best strategy to confront this? Speaking out and protesting about injustice works in the US because the Bill of Rights guarantees Freedom of Speech. In totalitarian regimes, there is no such right for the people. There are no means by which we can combat MBS. Imagining that westerners protesting MBS on the internet might lead to any real positive change is a pipe dream. It won't stop the US government from trading with Saudi Arabia. It's more likely MBS will have access to Twitter/X blocked. Such a protest may backfire in the same way that protesting Donald Trump gave him more attention, with the main difference being, there is absolutely no legal mechanism by which MBS could be taken down. Such protests may only strengthen the image of power he has. Additionally, if MBS wanted to, he could easily use Saudi Arabia's resources to build their own Arab-centric version of X/Twitter.
- viraptor 3y ago
  Sometimes things go far enough that one may want to say "no, I'm completely against that" even if it means lost money or opportunities and no direct upsides. Not everyone will be up for that. Not everyone can afford to. But when it happens, I'm happy to keep it in mind and give my money to businesses that do want to treat people better.
- rayiner 3y ago
  What is this American moral universalism? Why would “we combat” or “take down” MBS? What the f—k business do we have weighing in on Saudi society? Also, do you know who is waiting in the wings behind MBS? It’s not anyone western liberals are going to like. And I’m not defending MBS—but the reason I dislike Saudi is that they do the exact same moral universalism to the rest of the Muslim world, exporting Wahhabism to moderate Muslim countries. I see no reason for the US to get into Crusades 2.0.
  - dddssddd 3y ago
    you can't defend something grotesque then say i'm not defending him and be wiped clean of your previous gross comment.
    - rayiner 3y ago
      I don’t subscribe to the George W. Bush idea of “you’re with us or against us.” Saying that it’s not the role of US billionaires and corporations to weigh in about the affairs of sovereign foreign countries is not a defense of what’s happening in those foreign countries. It’s about people staying in their lane.
      - mthoms 3y ago
        The op was asking what we, as individuals, could do. You argued (very poorly) that we shouldn't do anything simply because it's none of our businesses. When pressed on that (here and elsewhere in this thread) you keep pivoting to talk about what the US government, billionaires and corporations should or shouldn't do. But that wasn't the question asked. I can only assume you keep pivoting to that angle because those are easier arguments to make and involve considerably less self-reflection.
        rayiner 3y ago
        In pivoting to that angle because the article criticizes billionaire that owns a major media platform for not leveraging that power to criticize a sovereign country’s domestic laws.
- WeylandYutani 3y ago
  American laws don't apply outside the US anyway. I don't care much for Musk or Twitter but in this case he's not wrong. Saudi Arabia is a sovereign country. Take it up with the Biden administration if you want American foreign policy to change- but we all know it won't.
- ksaj 3y ago
  I have worked a few times in Riyadh (one time for an 8-month stint!) and one thing that rather shocked me is that capital punishment is done publicly, and it draws huge crowds. Literally you can't even drive by the square because the entire area is packed with spectators there only to see the hand and head choppings. Also, if you fight for this one person, you have to realize there are several put to death or getting their hands chopped off (for theft, etc) every week that are not being rallied for. I believe it was Mondays, but it's more than a decade ago now, so I may not remember the specific day. But yea, it was a family entertainment event. I myself never went because I find the whole idea abhorrent. A number of people I was working with there wouldn't miss it for the world. Working there gave me a whole perspective on totalitarian societies that I had not expected. I'm glad I don't live in one.
  - spookie 3y ago
    That's... I don't have words. It's saddening. I really don't understand why one would go see such a thing, it's clearly meant to input fear on the people.
    - somerandomqaguy 3y ago
      IIRC executions for traitors on Tower Hill in London were oft public as well. The way the Beefeaters tell the story, it was partly as warning but it genuinely is just as a day for family entertainment as well, similar to how ksaj is saying. Come out as a day for a picnic or buying snacks from various vendor and to watch a head roll. How true it is, who's to say. I find it rather plausible though.
      - hotpotamus 3y ago
        There's a song in the operetta "Candide" called "Auto Da Fe (What a Day)" that expresses the joy of the crowds in watching the Auto Da Fes (Acts of faith) of the Spanish Inquisition wherein people were forced to perform public acts of penance for their religious sins or heresies, up to burning at the stake. It's a funny song in its irony, and I'm sure Votaire would have appreciated the treatment that Bernstein gave it. That is to say that this sort of thing is not particularly unheard of. The cultural software of some modern countries may be a bit more progressed than others, but the human hardware of at least a significant portion of the world seems inclined to delight in punishment of those perceived as sinful.
- justapassenger 3y ago
  You can’t pull “free speech absolutist” card when it costs you nothing and is your stated reason for protecting insurrectionists, fascist and racist content on your platform, while keeping quiet when your buddies, who gave you billions of dollars, kill people who use your platform. Is there a great strategy to deal with saudis? No, I’m with you in that, there’s not. But it just shows how full of shit Musk is. He’s a high school bully, who talks when talk is cheap, attacks weak ones and back down immediately when someone actually confronts him.
rayiner 3y ago
> Tech billionaire Elon Musk has been noticeably silent after a Saudi Arabian national was sentenced to death for a series of posts on Musk's social media platform criticizing his government, calling into question the limits of Musk's commitment to uninhibited free speech when it comes to his own financial interests. This makes no sense. Free speech is an American value. Most societies, even other European-descended societies, do not share that value to the same degree, if at all. And it’s not the job of American billionaires to tell other societies how to govern themselves.
- joshstrange 3y ago
  > And it’s not the job of American billionaires to tell other societies how to govern themselves. It hasn't exactly stopped them and I don't remember Elon ever couching his statements with "in the USA". I mean he wasn't even born in the US, wasn't a citizen till 2002, and holds citizenship in 2 other countries as well. I wouldn't exactly expect him to hold only to American values (or any values for that matter) nor is free speech a uniquely American value.
- goodbyesf 3y ago
  Gotta love the media. Attacks social media's financial interests to limit speech on social media the past decade and then mocks social media for limiting speech to protect their financial interests. Also, let the saudis, russians, africans, iranians, chinese, indians, etc protect their own 'values' and let them punish people for 'disinformation' as they fit. The same propagandists complaining about foreign interference sure love to interfere everywhere.
  - spookie 3y ago
    Are they interfering with the country in this case, or are they pointing out that a U.S. based company should be more concerned about their investments or financial interests? Really, is this piece "interfering" abroad?
    - goodbyesf 3y ago
      > Are they interfering with the country in this case, Yes obviously. > or are they pointing out that a U.S. based company should be more concerned about their investments or financial interests? What? You think newsweek is looking out for elon's financial interests? > Really, is this piece "interfering" abroad? No. Saint media is worried about elon's financial well being.
skissane 3y ago
If Musk publicly criticises MBS for this, I really doubt that is going to save the man's life. If anything, it will likely anger MBS, and he'll feel more inclined to make sure the execution is carried out. If Musk privately contacts MBS, and asks him to reconsider this – there is a chance he might convince MBS to quietly commute the sentence. So, if you really want to save this man's life - urging Musk to speak out publicly about it may not be the best approach.

41 points by davidbarker 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

who bought what exactly? https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prince-alwaleed-becomes-twitters-second-largest-shareholder/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/10/31/saudi-prin... https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/28/saudis-kingdom-holding-company-to-maintain-twitter-stake https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/10/28/saudis-kingdom-hol... https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-twitter-deal-extra-7-billion-backing-saudi-prince-2022-5?op=1 https://www.businessinsider.com/elon-musk-twitter-deal-extra...

1MachineElf 3y ago

Honestly, what is the best strategy to confront this? Speaking out and protesting about injustice works in the US because the Bill of Rights guarantees Freedom of Speech. In totalitarian regimes, there is no such right for the people. There are no means by which we can combat MBS. Imagining that westerners protesting MBS on the internet might lead to any real positive change is a pipe dream. It won't stop the US government from trading with Saudi Arabia. It's more likely MBS will have access to Twitter/X blocked. Such a protest may backfire in the same way that protesting Donald Trump gave him more attention, with the main difference being, there is absolutely no legal mechanism by which MBS could be taken down. Such protests may only strengthen the image of power he has. Additionally, if MBS wanted to, he could easily use Saudi Arabia's resources to build their own Arab-centric version of X/Twitter.

viraptor 3y ago
Sometimes things go far enough that one may want to say "no, I'm completely against that" even if it means lost money or opportunities and no direct upsides. Not everyone will be up for that. Not everyone can afford to. But when it happens, I'm happy to keep it in mind and give my money to businesses that do want to treat people better.
rayiner 3y ago
What is this American moral universalism? Why would “we combat” or “take down” MBS? What the f—k business do we have weighing in on Saudi society? Also, do you know who is waiting in the wings behind MBS? It’s not anyone western liberals are going to like. And I’m not defending MBS—but the reason I dislike Saudi is that they do the exact same moral universalism to the rest of the Muslim world, exporting Wahhabism to moderate Muslim countries. I see no reason for the US to get into Crusades 2.0.
- dddssddd 3y ago
  you can't defend something grotesque then say i'm not defending him and be wiped clean of your previous gross comment.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    I don’t subscribe to the George W. Bush idea of “you’re with us or against us.” Saying that it’s not the role of US billionaires and corporations to weigh in about the affairs of sovereign foreign countries is not a defense of what’s happening in those foreign countries. It’s about people staying in their lane.
    - mthoms 3y ago
      The op was asking what we, as individuals, could do. You argued (very poorly) that we shouldn't do anything simply because it's none of our businesses. When pressed on that (here and elsewhere in this thread) you keep pivoting to talk about what the US government, billionaires and corporations should or shouldn't do. But that wasn't the question asked. I can only assume you keep pivoting to that angle because those are easier arguments to make and involve considerably less self-reflection.
      - rayiner 3y ago
        In pivoting to that angle because the article criticizes billionaire that owns a major media platform for not leveraging that power to criticize a sovereign country’s domestic laws.
WeylandYutani 3y ago
American laws don't apply outside the US anyway. I don't care much for Musk or Twitter but in this case he's not wrong. Saudi Arabia is a sovereign country. Take it up with the Biden administration if you want American foreign policy to change- but we all know it won't.
ksaj 3y ago
I have worked a few times in Riyadh (one time for an 8-month stint!) and one thing that rather shocked me is that capital punishment is done publicly, and it draws huge crowds. Literally you can't even drive by the square because the entire area is packed with spectators there only to see the hand and head choppings. Also, if you fight for this one person, you have to realize there are several put to death or getting their hands chopped off (for theft, etc) every week that are not being rallied for. I believe it was Mondays, but it's more than a decade ago now, so I may not remember the specific day. But yea, it was a family entertainment event. I myself never went because I find the whole idea abhorrent. A number of people I was working with there wouldn't miss it for the world. Working there gave me a whole perspective on totalitarian societies that I had not expected. I'm glad I don't live in one.
- spookie 3y ago
  That's... I don't have words. It's saddening. I really don't understand why one would go see such a thing, it's clearly meant to input fear on the people.
  - somerandomqaguy 3y ago
    IIRC executions for traitors on Tower Hill in London were oft public as well. The way the Beefeaters tell the story, it was partly as warning but it genuinely is just as a day for family entertainment as well, similar to how ksaj is saying. Come out as a day for a picnic or buying snacks from various vendor and to watch a head roll. How true it is, who's to say. I find it rather plausible though.
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      There's a song in the operetta "Candide" called "Auto Da Fe (What a Day)" that expresses the joy of the crowds in watching the Auto Da Fes (Acts of faith) of the Spanish Inquisition wherein people were forced to perform public acts of penance for their religious sins or heresies, up to burning at the stake. It's a funny song in its irony, and I'm sure Votaire would have appreciated the treatment that Bernstein gave it. That is to say that this sort of thing is not particularly unheard of. The cultural software of some modern countries may be a bit more progressed than others, but the human hardware of at least a significant portion of the world seems inclined to delight in punishment of those perceived as sinful.
justapassenger 3y ago
You can’t pull “free speech absolutist” card when it costs you nothing and is your stated reason for protecting insurrectionists, fascist and racist content on your platform, while keeping quiet when your buddies, who gave you billions of dollars, kill people who use your platform. Is there a great strategy to deal with saudis? No, I’m with you in that, there’s not. But it just shows how full of shit Musk is. He’s a high school bully, who talks when talk is cheap, attacks weak ones and back down immediately when someone actually confronts him.

rayiner 3y ago

> Tech billionaire Elon Musk has been noticeably silent after a Saudi Arabian national was sentenced to death for a series of posts on Musk's social media platform criticizing his government, calling into question the limits of Musk's commitment to uninhibited free speech when it comes to his own financial interests. This makes no sense. Free speech is an American value. Most societies, even other European-descended societies, do not share that value to the same degree, if at all. And it’s not the job of American billionaires to tell other societies how to govern themselves.

joshstrange 3y ago
> And it’s not the job of American billionaires to tell other societies how to govern themselves. It hasn't exactly stopped them and I don't remember Elon ever couching his statements with "in the USA". I mean he wasn't even born in the US, wasn't a citizen till 2002, and holds citizenship in 2 other countries as well. I wouldn't exactly expect him to hold only to American values (or any values for that matter) nor is free speech a uniquely American value.
goodbyesf 3y ago
Gotta love the media. Attacks social media's financial interests to limit speech on social media the past decade and then mocks social media for limiting speech to protect their financial interests. Also, let the saudis, russians, africans, iranians, chinese, indians, etc protect their own 'values' and let them punish people for 'disinformation' as they fit. The same propagandists complaining about foreign interference sure love to interfere everywhere.
- spookie 3y ago
  Are they interfering with the country in this case, or are they pointing out that a U.S. based company should be more concerned about their investments or financial interests? Really, is this piece "interfering" abroad?
  - goodbyesf 3y ago
    > Are they interfering with the country in this case, Yes obviously. > or are they pointing out that a U.S. based company should be more concerned about their investments or financial interests? What? You think newsweek is looking out for elon's financial interests? > Really, is this piece "interfering" abroad? No. Saint media is worried about elon's financial well being.

skissane 3y ago

If Musk publicly criticises MBS for this, I really doubt that is going to save the man's life. If anything, it will likely anger MBS, and he'll feel more inclined to make sure the execution is carried out. If Musk privately contacts MBS, and asks him to reconsider this – there is a chance he might convince MBS to quietly commute the sentence. So, if you really want to save this man's life - urging Musk to speak out publicly about it may not be the best approach.