4 ms·

> Nobody in politics is ethical, nobody in business is ethical, no market is competitive. I didn't say any of those things. You came close on the third item,

by lisper 3y ago

> Nobody in politics is ethical, nobody in business is ethical, no market is competitive. I didn't say any of those things. You came close on the third item, but the operative word there was "free", not "competitive". There are competitive markets, but they aren't free. If you want to dispute that, give me a counterexample. But if you're going to raise straw men then yes, perhaps it is time to call it a day.

lapcat 3y ago
>> Nobody in politics is ethical, nobody in business is ethical, no market is competitive. > I didn't say any of those things. Uh, you did: > I don't like type 1 corruption any more than you do, but the only way to get rid of it is to change the law, not to cast aspersions on those who engage in it -- because that includes every democratically elected official in the country. >> everyone in business must be unethical, because unethical businesspeople are more likely to succeed > Yes, I think that's probably true. >> What differentiates politics, in large part, is that it's not a free, competitive market > ROTFL. There are no free, competitive markets. Even in commerce the vast majority of industries are dominated and controlled by a very small number (often just two, sometimes one) of major players. So yes, you did say all of those things. > There are competitive markets, but they aren't free. If you want to dispute that, give me a counterexample. I don't even know what you mean by competitive but not free. I'm not interested in finding out, though, because you've already blatantly lied about what you said. I don't believe you're arguing in good faith, and thus it is indeed time to call it a day.
- lisper 3y ago
  > Uh, you did: No. You are reading my words through the lens of your own opinions and prejudices. When you re-stated my positions, you changed the words, and when you did that, you changed the meaning in significant ways. > Nobody in politics is ethical What I said was that type 1 corruption is ubiquitous. I took no position on whether or not it is ethical. This is a complicated question. The only reason I'm using the word "corruption", with all of its pejorative connotations, to describe it is because English doesn't have a better word. I could call it "campaign finance". Private campaign finance is ubiquitous. Is it unethical? Reasonable people can disagree. Personally, I would prefer to have publicly financed campaigns, but we have this annoying First Amendment that makes it tough to implement. > nobody in business is ethical I didn't take a position on that either. What I said was to pose a rhetorical question: if a business person is unethical, how would you know? Because if a business person does something unethical they will generally try to conceal it. There probably are ethical people in business, but I think they are probably rare. But that is neither here nor there. What matters is that you would have a very hard time demonstrating their existence since you would have to somehow demonstrate that they were not successfully concealing their unethical behavior. I think there are probably ethical people in politics too, and I think Joe Biden is probably about as close to that as you're going to get, at least at the national level. Do you have a better example? > no market is competitive. What I said was that there are no free competitive markets. The operative word was "free", not "competitive". Obviously there are competitive markets, and politics is one of them. There is no substantive difference between the dynamics of political markets and the dynamics of any other market where the nature of the product is such that there can be only one winner (e.g. large construction projects).
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > You are reading my words through the lens of your own opinions and prejudices. Have you considered that you just don't write very clearly? > I could call it "campaign finance". Private campaign finance is ubiquitous. No, it's not just about campaign finance. Of course every politician raises campaign funds, an empirical fact beyond dispute. The corrupt, unethical aspect of it is buying influence, trading campaign donations for access, favors, and votes. This is not an essential requirement of campaign finance, but it's a sadly common occurrence. I said way back at the beginning "As far as I've seen, which is a lot, he's been a paid tool of the Delaware financial industry for his entire career" and "I'm baffled that some people don't consider it corruption when politicians are owned by campaign contributors." I wasn't talking about the fact that Joe Biden has raised campaign funds; by itself, that's not interesting or worth noting. My point was that Biden has consistently, persistently served the interests of his big money donors rather than his constituents. That's corruption. Type 1 corruption, if you insist on using those terms. It doesn't personally enrich politicians, but it advances their political careers and power. > What I said was to pose a rhetorical question: if a business person is unethical, how would you know? Because if a business person does something unethical they will generally try to conceal it. This is ridiculous, absurdly cynical, even by my own standards of cynicism. Are you skeptical of the existence of true love too? Is everyone in your life just lying to you about everything? I'm in business myself, and I know myself. I don't think I'm unique in the world. I've dealt with plenty of honest people. Moreover, in general, people are not particularly good at covering up their misdeeds and bad intentions. It's usually pretty obvious, if you're observant. > The operative word was "free", not "competitive". You still haven't stated what you mean by "free". Or "competitive", for that matter. (Have you considered that you just don't write very clearly?) > Obviously there are competitive markets, and politics is one of them. I wouldn't consider a duopoly to be very competitive. What do you even mean by "competitive"? Is any market except a monopoly competitive to you? Maybe we should call it "type 1" competitive... In any case, whatever you mean by those words, I simply don't agree with this: > Even in commerce the vast majority of industries are dominated and controlled by a very small number (often just two, sometimes one) of major players. You can cherry-pick examples, but I see plenty of markets that aren't so dominated.
    - 3y ago

by lisper 3y ago

lapcat 3y ago

>> Nobody in politics is ethical, nobody in business is ethical, no market is competitive. > I didn't say any of those things. Uh, you did: > I don't like type 1 corruption any more than you do, but the only way to get rid of it is to change the law, not to cast aspersions on those who engage in it -- because that includes every democratically elected official in the country. >> everyone in business must be unethical, because unethical businesspeople are more likely to succeed > Yes, I think that's probably true. >> What differentiates politics, in large part, is that it's not a free, competitive market > ROTFL. There are no free, competitive markets. Even in commerce the vast majority of industries are dominated and controlled by a very small number (often just two, sometimes one) of major players. So yes, you did say all of those things. > There are competitive markets, but they aren't free. If you want to dispute that, give me a counterexample. I don't even know what you mean by competitive but not free. I'm not interested in finding out, though, because you've already blatantly lied about what you said. I don't believe you're arguing in good faith, and thus it is indeed time to call it a day.

lisper 3y ago
> Uh, you did: No. You are reading my words through the lens of your own opinions and prejudices. When you re-stated my positions, you changed the words, and when you did that, you changed the meaning in significant ways. > Nobody in politics is ethical What I said was that type 1 corruption is ubiquitous. I took no position on whether or not it is ethical. This is a complicated question. The only reason I'm using the word "corruption", with all of its pejorative connotations, to describe it is because English doesn't have a better word. I could call it "campaign finance". Private campaign finance is ubiquitous. Is it unethical? Reasonable people can disagree. Personally, I would prefer to have publicly financed campaigns, but we have this annoying First Amendment that makes it tough to implement. > nobody in business is ethical I didn't take a position on that either. What I said was to pose a rhetorical question: if a business person is unethical, how would you know? Because if a business person does something unethical they will generally try to conceal it. There probably are ethical people in business, but I think they are probably rare. But that is neither here nor there. What matters is that you would have a very hard time demonstrating their existence since you would have to somehow demonstrate that they were not successfully concealing their unethical behavior. I think there are probably ethical people in politics too, and I think Joe Biden is probably about as close to that as you're going to get, at least at the national level. Do you have a better example? > no market is competitive. What I said was that there are no free competitive markets. The operative word was "free", not "competitive". Obviously there are competitive markets, and politics is one of them. There is no substantive difference between the dynamics of political markets and the dynamics of any other market where the nature of the product is such that there can be only one winner (e.g. large construction projects).
- lapcat 3y ago
  > You are reading my words through the lens of your own opinions and prejudices. Have you considered that you just don't write very clearly? > I could call it "campaign finance". Private campaign finance is ubiquitous. No, it's not just about campaign finance. Of course every politician raises campaign funds, an empirical fact beyond dispute. The corrupt, unethical aspect of it is buying influence, trading campaign donations for access, favors, and votes. This is not an essential requirement of campaign finance, but it's a sadly common occurrence. I said way back at the beginning "As far as I've seen, which is a lot, he's been a paid tool of the Delaware financial industry for his entire career" and "I'm baffled that some people don't consider it corruption when politicians are owned by campaign contributors." I wasn't talking about the fact that Joe Biden has raised campaign funds; by itself, that's not interesting or worth noting. My point was that Biden has consistently, persistently served the interests of his big money donors rather than his constituents. That's corruption. Type 1 corruption, if you insist on using those terms. It doesn't personally enrich politicians, but it advances their political careers and power. > What I said was to pose a rhetorical question: if a business person is unethical, how would you know? Because if a business person does something unethical they will generally try to conceal it. This is ridiculous, absurdly cynical, even by my own standards of cynicism. Are you skeptical of the existence of true love too? Is everyone in your life just lying to you about everything? I'm in business myself, and I know myself. I don't think I'm unique in the world. I've dealt with plenty of honest people. Moreover, in general, people are not particularly good at covering up their misdeeds and bad intentions. It's usually pretty obvious, if you're observant. > The operative word was "free", not "competitive". You still haven't stated what you mean by "free". Or "competitive", for that matter. (Have you considered that you just don't write very clearly?) > Obviously there are competitive markets, and politics is one of them. I wouldn't consider a duopoly to be very competitive. What do you even mean by "competitive"? Is any market except a monopoly competitive to you? Maybe we should call it "type 1" competitive... In any case, whatever you mean by those words, I simply don't agree with this: > Even in commerce the vast majority of industries are dominated and controlled by a very small number (often just two, sometimes one) of major players. You can cherry-pick examples, but I see plenty of markets that aren't so dominated.
  - 3y ago