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> without the need for KYC, while also providing an efficient off-ramp to USD for our own needs. Until regulations require KYC for these sort of transactions a

> without the need for KYC, while also providing an efficient off-ramp to USD for our own needs. Until regulations require KYC for these sort of transactions and then Kagi will need to collect data defeating the point of this. Why do we still bother with crypto when close to nobody uses it for any legitimate purpose?

alphanullmeric 3y ago
Preventing you from spying on and making rules about other people’s money is a legitimate purpose, and no amount of patriot act talking points and proposals for the redistribution of consequences will change that.
- colesantiago 3y ago
  > Preventing you from spying on and making rules about other people’s money is a legitimate purpose Regulations will change this and you will be unable to cash out unless you identify yourself to KYC. cryptocurrency is not anonymous, it is pseudonymous so the privacy argument is completely moot. Also crypto is a pyramid scheme at best, a ponzi scheme at its worst.
  - alphanullmeric 3y ago
    “It’s the law” is not an adequate justification of the law. My argument isn’t moot because your intention is to violate my privacy, regardless of how good you think I am at protecting it. Again, keep your hands off my things. No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams.
    - Melting_Harps 3y ago
      > No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams. The vocal detractor's hostility is only matched by the their ignorance and arrogance; they assume because they have no use for it that no else does either. Again, I've tried to win them with reason, and even put challenges in order for them to put their money where their mouths are; but they just shirk it and go on about disparaging it without any real substance. o be fair, I think 99% of crypto are scams, too; what they don't realize is that is often their cohort (SBF and al the VC money and SV might behind him) who do the most scamming.
      - colesantiago 3y ago
        > they assume because they have no use for it that no else does either. I'll go a step further: Crypto has no use case that hasn't been already solved by the current financial system and it is not private at all. In fact most users have dwindling and no confidence with crypto: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/10/majority-of-americans-arent-confident-in-the-safety-and-reliability-of-cryptocurrency/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/10/majority-... > Again, I've tried to win them with reason, and even put challenges in order for them to put their money where their mouths are; but they just shirk it and go on about disparaging it without any real substance. And where is the substance in the crypto industry? The answer is the sum of the amount of use cases they are trying to find. Zero.
      - tempera 3y ago
        You are trying to reason in good faith with someone who receives money to post. These are the narrative ninnies, who push a narrative on subjects like: war, surveillance, lockdowns, elections. Can't let forming opinion to chance, not here, not on reddit, not anywhere!
        colesantiago 3y ago
        > You are trying to reason in good faith with someone who receives money to post. Source? or do you always keep making things up? Even if I was being paid to post, I would not use crypto to accept payment.
    - colesantiago 3y ago
      > My argument isn’t moot because your intention is to violate my privacy, We both know cryptocurrencies aren't private at all so it is moot point and a fool's errand to use crypto as a means for anonymous and private transactions > No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams. So companies and small businesses have voluntarily participated in crypto phishing and crypto ransomware scams? Why do you keep blaming victims and when are you going to stop?
      - alphanullmeric 3y ago
        I find it hilarious that you intentionally quote one half of a sentence knowing the other half would defeat the argument you make. No, and phishing and ransomware aren’t what you’re targeting. Since you intend on banning general usage of crypto, you need to prove I’m being scammed when I volunteer to run a set of instructions on my computer that are available for me to read. Which is an impossible task, because your response to my “I consent” is “No you don’t”.
        colesantiago 3y ago
        > I find it hilarious that you intentionally quote one half of a sentence because the other half would defeat the argument you make. It wouldn't because the coming regulations will compel those exchanges working with crypto to force you to use KYC to cash out your cryptocurrencies, even your cold wallet isn't safe from this. Significant volatile prices and regular manipulative depeggings of stablecoins will force you to make a compromise to cash out to an exchange. All roads lead to KYC in either case. So yes your privacy point is well and completely useless. > No, and phishing and ransomware aren’t what you’re targeting. But you know that businesses are being targeted which defeats your ridiculous previous point on 'No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams.' You're also ignoring the truth that they aren't private, so my point still stands and you know it. Nobody accepts Monero, Bitcoin in the real world, so if you're serious about privacy you wouldn't use crypto. > Since you intend on banning general usage of crypto, you need to prove I’m being scammed when I volunteer to run a set of instructions on my computer that are available for me to read. Which is an impossible task, because your response to my “I consent” is “No you don’t”. This is complete nonsense, and won't hold in any court regardless of country. See my crypto ransomware argument that you keep ignoring.
    - timcavel 3y ago
      [dead]
gary_0 3y ago
Since this is one of the few non-scam-related uses of cryptocurrency, I'm fine with Kagi making use of it for anonymous subscriptions (while they still can). Also, even though "web3" needs to go die in a fire, doesn't it kind of suck that there might never be a good equivalent to plain old cash for buying stuff online?
- colesantiago 3y ago
  I disagree with this. There are better ways of having privacy preserving payments other than cash without being identified or using a service, vouchers come to mind that Kagi can do rather than crypto. It is still a grift and a scam as it is not 'really' anonymous at all so Kagi has wasted all this effort for something that no one that is legitimate user will use.
  - gary_0 3y ago
    I'm interested in what alternatives there might be to Bitcoin-style systems for "online cash". What do you mean by "vouchers"? How would that work, how would Kagi implement it? > it is not 'really' anonymous When you pay cash in meatspace there is still a paper trail, CCTVs watching you, bank rules about large deposits/withdrawals, etc. "Anonymous" isn't a binary. And while Bitcoin et al isn't perfect (and I've never gone to the trouble of using it) it can't be any worse than all of my purchases being instantly datamined by Visa/Mastercard.
  - freediver 3y ago
    It may be and it will probably not move the needle much for Kagi, but also it was one of the most requested features on Kagi forums [1] While I am personally not a crypto user, I think respecting the upvote mechanism as a legitimate way for Kagi users to steer the development of the platform is the least we can do if we want to call ourselves a user-centric company. It was also an interesting learning experience, implementing it was much harder than we anticipated and I hope others in the same position can benefit from our learnings. [1] https://kagifeedback.org/d/493-enable-anonymous-payments-ala-bitcoinmonero https://kagifeedback.org/d/493-enable-anonymous-payments-ala...
rich_sasha 3y ago
I sort of used to think that, but then whenever I read a HN plea for help against yet another Stripe or PayPal denial of service with funds locked, I think that actually crypto has some upsides here. Not all rosy and pink of course but at least there isn't a megacorp in the way who can just appropriate on your money with no recourse.
sshine 3y ago
> Why do we still bother with crypto when close to nobody uses it for any legitimate purpose? In Europe, some shops in tourist-heavy capital areas accept foreign currency. It's generally not a thing, but if enough of your customers come in with something that you know you can eventually convert back into your own currency, you're a fool if you don't accomodate your customers. Kagi happens to be a privacy-aware online service, and so they have a proportionally larger amount of customers who want to pay with internet money. I really don't see how you can get offended about that. This is literally one of those legitimate purposes.
timcavel 3y ago
[dead]
carlosjobim 3y ago
Purchasing drugs on the dark web is a perfectly fine use for crypto, but it seems to be the only use case crypto has found.

alphanullmeric 3y ago

Preventing you from spying on and making rules about other people’s money is a legitimate purpose, and no amount of patriot act talking points and proposals for the redistribution of consequences will change that.

colesantiago 3y ago
> Preventing you from spying on and making rules about other people’s money is a legitimate purpose Regulations will change this and you will be unable to cash out unless you identify yourself to KYC. cryptocurrency is not anonymous, it is pseudonymous so the privacy argument is completely moot. Also crypto is a pyramid scheme at best, a ponzi scheme at its worst.
- alphanullmeric 3y ago
  “It’s the law” is not an adequate justification of the law. My argument isn’t moot because your intention is to violate my privacy, regardless of how good you think I am at protecting it. Again, keep your hands off my things. No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams.
  - Melting_Harps 3y ago
    > No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams. The vocal detractor's hostility is only matched by the their ignorance and arrogance; they assume because they have no use for it that no else does either. Again, I've tried to win them with reason, and even put challenges in order for them to put their money where their mouths are; but they just shirk it and go on about disparaging it without any real substance. o be fair, I think 99% of crypto are scams, too; what they don't realize is that is often their cohort (SBF and al the VC money and SV might behind him) who do the most scamming.
    - colesantiago 3y ago
      > they assume because they have no use for it that no else does either. I'll go a step further: Crypto has no use case that hasn't been already solved by the current financial system and it is not private at all. In fact most users have dwindling and no confidence with crypto: https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/10/majority-of-americans-arent-confident-in-the-safety-and-reliability-of-cryptocurrency/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/04/10/majority-... > Again, I've tried to win them with reason, and even put challenges in order for them to put their money where their mouths are; but they just shirk it and go on about disparaging it without any real substance. And where is the substance in the crypto industry? The answer is the sum of the amount of use cases they are trying to find. Zero.
    - tempera 3y ago
      You are trying to reason in good faith with someone who receives money to post. These are the narrative ninnies, who push a narrative on subjects like: war, surveillance, lockdowns, elections. Can't let forming opinion to chance, not here, not on reddit, not anywhere!
      - colesantiago 3y ago
        > You are trying to reason in good faith with someone who receives money to post. Source? or do you always keep making things up? Even if I was being paid to post, I would not use crypto to accept payment.
  - colesantiago 3y ago
    > My argument isn’t moot because your intention is to violate my privacy, We both know cryptocurrencies aren't private at all so it is moot point and a fool's errand to use crypto as a means for anonymous and private transactions > No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams. So companies and small businesses have voluntarily participated in crypto phishing and crypto ransomware scams? Why do you keep blaming victims and when are you going to stop?
    - alphanullmeric 3y ago
      I find it hilarious that you intentionally quote one half of a sentence knowing the other half would defeat the argument you make. No, and phishing and ransomware aren’t what you’re targeting. Since you intend on banning general usage of crypto, you need to prove I’m being scammed when I volunteer to run a set of instructions on my computer that are available for me to read. Which is an impossible task, because your response to my “I consent” is “No you don’t”.
      - colesantiago 3y ago
        > I find it hilarious that you intentionally quote one half of a sentence because the other half would defeat the argument you make. It wouldn't because the coming regulations will compel those exchanges working with crypto to force you to use KYC to cash out your cryptocurrencies, even your cold wallet isn't safe from this. Significant volatile prices and regular manipulative depeggings of stablecoins will force you to make a compromise to cash out to an exchange. All roads lead to KYC in either case. So yes your privacy point is well and completely useless. > No, and phishing and ransomware aren’t what you’re targeting. But you know that businesses are being targeted which defeats your ridiculous previous point on 'No, things you voluntarily participate in aren’t scams.' You're also ignoring the truth that they aren't private, so my point still stands and you know it. Nobody accepts Monero, Bitcoin in the real world, so if you're serious about privacy you wouldn't use crypto. > Since you intend on banning general usage of crypto, you need to prove I’m being scammed when I volunteer to run a set of instructions on my computer that are available for me to read. Which is an impossible task, because your response to my “I consent” is “No you don’t”. This is complete nonsense, and won't hold in any court regardless of country. See my crypto ransomware argument that you keep ignoring.
  - timcavel 3y ago
    [dead]

gary_0 3y ago

Since this is one of the few non-scam-related uses of cryptocurrency, I'm fine with Kagi making use of it for anonymous subscriptions (while they still can). Also, even though "web3" needs to go die in a fire, doesn't it kind of suck that there might never be a good equivalent to plain old cash for buying stuff online?

colesantiago 3y ago
I disagree with this. There are better ways of having privacy preserving payments other than cash without being identified or using a service, vouchers come to mind that Kagi can do rather than crypto. It is still a grift and a scam as it is not 'really' anonymous at all so Kagi has wasted all this effort for something that no one that is legitimate user will use.
- gary_0 3y ago
  I'm interested in what alternatives there might be to Bitcoin-style systems for "online cash". What do you mean by "vouchers"? How would that work, how would Kagi implement it? > it is not 'really' anonymous When you pay cash in meatspace there is still a paper trail, CCTVs watching you, bank rules about large deposits/withdrawals, etc. "Anonymous" isn't a binary. And while Bitcoin et al isn't perfect (and I've never gone to the trouble of using it) it can't be any worse than all of my purchases being instantly datamined by Visa/Mastercard.
- freediver 3y ago
  It may be and it will probably not move the needle much for Kagi, but also it was one of the most requested features on Kagi forums [1] While I am personally not a crypto user, I think respecting the upvote mechanism as a legitimate way for Kagi users to steer the development of the platform is the least we can do if we want to call ourselves a user-centric company. It was also an interesting learning experience, implementing it was much harder than we anticipated and I hope others in the same position can benefit from our learnings. [1] https://kagifeedback.org/d/493-enable-anonymous-payments-ala-bitcoinmonero https://kagifeedback.org/d/493-enable-anonymous-payments-ala...

rich_sasha 3y ago

I sort of used to think that, but then whenever I read a HN plea for help against yet another Stripe or PayPal denial of service with funds locked, I think that actually crypto has some upsides here. Not all rosy and pink of course but at least there isn't a megacorp in the way who can just appropriate on your money with no recourse.

sshine 3y ago

> Why do we still bother with crypto when close to nobody uses it for any legitimate purpose? In Europe, some shops in tourist-heavy capital areas accept foreign currency. It's generally not a thing, but if enough of your customers come in with something that you know you can eventually convert back into your own currency, you're a fool if you don't accomodate your customers. Kagi happens to be a privacy-aware online service, and so they have a proportionally larger amount of customers who want to pay with internet money. I really don't see how you can get offended about that. This is literally one of those legitimate purposes.

timcavel 3y ago

[dead]

carlosjobim 3y ago

Purchasing drugs on the dark web is a perfectly fine use for crypto, but it seems to be the only use case crypto has found.