4 ms·

I'm a guy who in more of an IT role with alot of women (probably a little less than half the people here) -- so I guess I come from a weird perspective. My sist

by Duff 15y ago

I'm a guy who in more of an IT role with alot of women (probably a little less than half the people here) -- so I guess I come from a weird perspective. My sister is an engineer/designer, so I've heard her perspective on this as well. The issue with this kind of behavior is that it intimidates and/or repels professional women. It doesn't set an appropriate tone. If you were a woman with a degree in CS who was potentially interested in seriously participating in this event, would you want to to hang out with a bunch of beer-swilling jerks making passes at barmaids? Do you want to be one of a small number of women serious about hacking, feeling inadequate around the girls with tight tops with the beers? Probably not -- but that is the picture that the event organizers were painting. It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect.

orblivion 15y ago
> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect. The distinction between these points is important to me, I'm glad you bring it up. I know I've been somewhat contradictory on this, but I'll say I agree that the given joke, as it stands, is not respectful. If it were a guy's gathering, I think it would be ok, but it's an open invitation. Since I've been saying that the problem is about bad taste in humor, I've been trying to come up with a better way of making the same joke (if we are to take them on their word that this joke was really about being a male dominated field). What do you think of this variation (not to say it's that much more funny): "Women: Yes, we aim to make a welcoming atmosphere for women who want to participate in our hackathon. (And for those men still afraid of getting out-programmed by a girl, we've hired an all-female event staff to serve you cold beer.)" Granted it maybe sends a bit of a double-message still, I think something more along these lines could make it clear that we mean no real disrespect, but still keep it from getting too uptight.
- cgoddard 15y ago
  What's most offensive about the incident wasn't the wording in the ad, but the fact that they were going to hire exclusively women as sex objects (eye candy) for a professional event. The ad simply provided advance notice and an opportunity to call them out on it before the event actually happened.
  - orblivion 15y ago
    > professional event I didn't think hackathons were particularly professional. But I agree, the whole idea is pretty ridiculous.
- parfe 15y ago
  I don't understand why you think there is some sweet spot for a professional event where a sexist joke can be appropriate. Problems with your rewrite: Women: Yes, we aim to make a welcoming atmosphere for women who want to participate in our hackathon. (And for those men still afraid of getting out-programmed by a girl, we've hired an all-female event staff to serve you cold beer.) 1. Boys and Girls are children. Men and Women are adults. The target audience for professional events are people. 2. You imply that being out-programmed by a woman will hurt a man's ego. This is outright sexist and perpetuates the idea that men should be better than women. It both degrades women and shames men. 3. It creates a hostile environment for a woman who programs well. By outing herself as capable she will create social strife with her male peers. There is a reason women do worse on math exams in the presence of men. Social pressures is a real thing that you, as a presumably straight white male, get to ignore. 4. Pointing out you hired an all female staff makes explicit you cater to straight men. 5. By prefacing it with "Women:" you are still listing the female servants as a perk. "Great Food" Is a perk. "Handed to by a woman" is not. The entire concept literally uses breasts and vaginas as a lure for men. You keep trying to force the idea but it won't ever work in an inclusive way.
  - orblivion 15y ago
    This reaction seems to be the result of some combination of my own social ineptitude, and your being sensitive about the issue. Either way I can see why it's not going to be that easy. > 2. You imply that being out-programmed by a woman will hurt a man's ego. This is outright sexist and perpetuates the idea that men should be better than women. The point was to make fun of sexism, really. It makes fun of the side of us that is intimidated by smart women, and encourages the more adult behavior of not being afraid of smart "girls". > 4. Pointing out you hired an all female staff makes explicit you cater to straight men. Well sure, I don't want to make a purely PC joke either, sortof defeats my point. Sexism mixed in with anti-sexism, I would hope, sortof diffuses things with some absurdity. If done right. Which I still have to figure out I guess. > 5. By prefacing it with "Women:" I guess a play on the fact that in the first version, women was a perk. Here it's directly about encouraging women to show up. I guess it doesn't work out of context. How about pretend that I didn't put it in the perks section. > You keep trying to force the idea but it won't ever work in an inclusive way. I don't know what you mean by keep, this was my first attempt. Any case, I think that with your attitude taken to its extreme, you take away all possibility of fun. It may seem forced because there's no hope for turning this particular "joke" into something viable. I wouldn't have tried it in real life. I'm remain unconvinced that there's zero room for humor related to gender, maybe it has to be made very carefully and mildly. A female friend of mine pointed out that it's going to be a bad idea altogether while women are still less than 5% of the scene. The idea of waiting until things are less tense, I can get behind, I just would hate for this whole thing to result in a permanent taboo.
- Duff 15y ago
  I think that you're trying to swim in dangerous waters. Do you think that your variation would be considered OK if you were talking about a racial group? Or short people? Personally, I'd want to stress that this is an event where you can hack and have fun. Just say some variation of "We have an awesome event staff on-site to serve you! Cold beer, hot wings, etc on us!"
rsynnott 15y ago
> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect. 99% of time, when people whine about being oppressed by 'political correctness', what they're really complaining about is ordinary human decency.

by Duff 15y ago

orblivion 15y ago

> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect. The distinction between these points is important to me, I'm glad you bring it up. I know I've been somewhat contradictory on this, but I'll say I agree that the given joke, as it stands, is not respectful. If it were a guy's gathering, I think it would be ok, but it's an open invitation. Since I've been saying that the problem is about bad taste in humor, I've been trying to come up with a better way of making the same joke (if we are to take them on their word that this joke was really about being a male dominated field). What do you think of this variation (not to say it's that much more funny): "Women: Yes, we aim to make a welcoming atmosphere for women who want to participate in our hackathon. (And for those men still afraid of getting out-programmed by a girl, we've hired an all-female event staff to serve you cold beer.)" Granted it maybe sends a bit of a double-message still, I think something more along these lines could make it clear that we mean no real disrespect, but still keep it from getting too uptight.

cgoddard 15y ago
What's most offensive about the incident wasn't the wording in the ad, but the fact that they were going to hire exclusively women as sex objects (eye candy) for a professional event. The ad simply provided advance notice and an opportunity to call them out on it before the event actually happened.
- orblivion 15y ago
  > professional event I didn't think hackathons were particularly professional. But I agree, the whole idea is pretty ridiculous.
parfe 15y ago
I don't understand why you think there is some sweet spot for a professional event where a sexist joke can be appropriate. Problems with your rewrite: Women: Yes, we aim to make a welcoming atmosphere for women who want to participate in our hackathon. (And for those men still afraid of getting out-programmed by a girl, we've hired an all-female event staff to serve you cold beer.) 1. Boys and Girls are children. Men and Women are adults. The target audience for professional events are people. 2. You imply that being out-programmed by a woman will hurt a man's ego. This is outright sexist and perpetuates the idea that men should be better than women. It both degrades women and shames men. 3. It creates a hostile environment for a woman who programs well. By outing herself as capable she will create social strife with her male peers. There is a reason women do worse on math exams in the presence of men. Social pressures is a real thing that you, as a presumably straight white male, get to ignore. 4. Pointing out you hired an all female staff makes explicit you cater to straight men. 5. By prefacing it with "Women:" you are still listing the female servants as a perk. "Great Food" Is a perk. "Handed to by a woman" is not. The entire concept literally uses breasts and vaginas as a lure for men. You keep trying to force the idea but it won't ever work in an inclusive way.
- orblivion 15y ago
  This reaction seems to be the result of some combination of my own social ineptitude, and your being sensitive about the issue. Either way I can see why it's not going to be that easy. > 2. You imply that being out-programmed by a woman will hurt a man's ego. This is outright sexist and perpetuates the idea that men should be better than women. The point was to make fun of sexism, really. It makes fun of the side of us that is intimidated by smart women, and encourages the more adult behavior of not being afraid of smart "girls". > 4. Pointing out you hired an all female staff makes explicit you cater to straight men. Well sure, I don't want to make a purely PC joke either, sortof defeats my point. Sexism mixed in with anti-sexism, I would hope, sortof diffuses things with some absurdity. If done right. Which I still have to figure out I guess. > 5. By prefacing it with "Women:" I guess a play on the fact that in the first version, women was a perk. Here it's directly about encouraging women to show up. I guess it doesn't work out of context. How about pretend that I didn't put it in the perks section. > You keep trying to force the idea but it won't ever work in an inclusive way. I don't know what you mean by keep, this was my first attempt. Any case, I think that with your attitude taken to its extreme, you take away all possibility of fun. It may seem forced because there's no hope for turning this particular "joke" into something viable. I wouldn't have tried it in real life. I'm remain unconvinced that there's zero room for humor related to gender, maybe it has to be made very carefully and mildly. A female friend of mine pointed out that it's going to be a bad idea altogether while women are still less than 5% of the scene. The idea of waiting until things are less tense, I can get behind, I just would hate for this whole thing to result in a permanent taboo.
Duff 15y ago
I think that you're trying to swim in dangerous waters. Do you think that your variation would be considered OK if you were talking about a racial group? Or short people? Personally, I'd want to stress that this is an event where you can hack and have fun. Just say some variation of "We have an awesome event staff on-site to serve you! Cold beer, hot wings, etc on us!"

rsynnott 15y ago

> It's not a matter of bringing in the "PC police". It's about respect. 99% of time, when people whine about being oppressed by 'political correctness', what they're really complaining about is ordinary human decency.