6 ms·

Second comment puts it perfectly: "Could you please explain how your "humor" was designed to call attention to the male-dominated world and was intended to be i

Second comment puts it perfectly: "Could you please explain how your "humor" was designed to call attention to the male-dominated world and was intended to be inclusive? How is inclusive to say that one of the perks were "women" and that one of your female event staff can fetch the boys some beer?" Claiming humorous irony is a very thin get-out clause in this kind of situation. You can't say "we were advertising our female beer-fetchers to ironically draw attention to the male-dominated programming field, thus showing solidarity with women." It just doesn't hold water. For your own sakes, guys, grit your teeth, bite down on a piece of leather or something, and write a real apology. This is so close! I know you can get the last 5% of the way!

mbrzuzy 15y ago
What is the big deal. People get way to offended this day in age. It's almost as if people are waiting for someone to say something offensive just so they can jump on it acting all high and mighty.
- rmc 15y ago
  Or there is a legimate problem here?
  - timtamboy63 15y ago
    I personally don't think so. Everyone knows that Hackathons are widely male dominated. Yes, the comment was a little out of line in a professional content, but forgive them for trying to crack some humour and have some fun with their ad. Have we become so politically correct that we can't let this slide? @rmc: Do you honestly believe that Sqoot is sexist because of that one joke? That they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry? Really? EDIT: I reread it, and I think the major issue was listing 'women' as a perk, instead of something like 'beer'. Definitely out of line, but again, they should be allowed to make up for it.
    - ianterrell 15y ago
      I think the argument that it was a joke is hard to swallow. It doesn't even approach humor to me. A commenter on the apology got it right: > From the original press release it sounded like you were just trying to throw a party with "hot waitresses serving drinks" I'm not rmc and I won't answer for him, but I'll answer your queries from my own point of view. Do I believe that they're sexist because of that one statement? Yes, I do, absolutely, but: does that imply that I think that "they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry?" No, I don't believe their sexism is of that sort. I think that most sexism in the US today is significantly more subtle than an outright looking down on women. In this case, its subtlety makes it all the more pernicious: it's harder to spot (even in one's self), it's harder to call out, it's easier to excuse. Saying women are trash will make you into a pariah, and no one will patronize your business. But what does a much smaller objectification of women, like this case, do? It has a chilling effect and it normalizes similar behavior; it contributes to the culture of sexism. Are statements ("jokes") with such negative effects acceptable? It's hard to argue that they are, and so it seems to me that the argument in defense must be that the statement doesn't have those effects. And I think from the backlash, well written comments on the apology, etc--I think that's a steep hill to climb. As for them personally: I don't think it should be judged that they're bad people. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know. Are they sexist? I said they were, absolutely, because their behavior was, which they're culpable for. So they're sexist even if only partially and unconsciously. I'll give them that benefit of the doubt, so it's an offense, but it's a forgivable offense. There's a lot of sexism around. I've been guilty of sexist behavior in the past, and I'm sure I'll be guilty of it in the future. That's what happens when it's ingrained in culture and remains normal behavior. And that's what happens when statements like this are allowed to slide. We do things without knowing their full weight, meaning, and impact. And then we learn, and we adjust. And most importantly, through adjusting our behavior we introspect to the causes, and so learn more about ourselves and our world, and what makes it all tick, so that we can eliminate that which doesn't live up to our ideals.
      - timtamboy63 15y ago
        You do make a really good point, and I definitely do agree with you. I just feel like people overreacted, almost like they jumped on the holier-than-thou bandwagon. When you consider events like CES and that one Yahoo Hack Day which employed strippers, this isn't nearly as offensive. Again, I definitely do see what you mean by it contributing to the culture of sexist, and that simply isn't acceptable. However, I feel like the sponsors, etc should have given Sqoot a chance to fix things before they resorted to the moves they did.
  - mindcrime 15y ago
    There's no reason it couldn't be both. There does appear to be a legitimate problem; but some people are also eager for any opportunity to scream "sexism" or "discrimination" and start jumping up and down looking for attention. One can be cognizant of the real issues and want to find solutions to them, without worshiping at the altar of Political Correctness.
- ctide 15y ago
  Sexism (specifically in tech) is the new racism. If you go down that path of anything remotely sexist, expect to be torn to shreds just as quickly as if you made a racist remark. If people didn't get offended, then people like Sqoot will feel like it's totally OK to belittle women, even if they would never think to include racist jokes.
  - thoradam 15y ago
    Actually that's the funny part, this "joke" was in no way belittling women, it's idolizing them. It was made at the expense of the stereotypical male geek to whom women are otherwise inaccessible. Somehow it was appropriated as being about the female attendees.
    - knowtheory 15y ago
      Having/Wanting someone to serve you is not "idolizing". And as said elsewhere, just because you say shitty things about everyone doesn't mean that it's okay to say shitty things.
      - thoradam 15y ago
        > Having/Wanting someone to serve you is not "idolizing". Is that the point of contention, that people feel that serving someone is demeaning? > And as said elsewhere, just because you say shitty things about everyone doesn't mean that it's okay to say shitty things. So you agree that the comment wasn't slighting women? Or are you just generally offended by all the possible interpretations?
    - Gayle 15y ago
      Yes... it's idolizing women... as sexual objects offered as a perk to male coders so that they can serve the men. As a female coder, I'd rather not be offered as a perk to male coders. So, yeah, this is belittling.
      - thoradam 15y ago
deleted 15y ago
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strickjb9 15y ago
Women - did you know that on golf courses the attendant who serves you beer is commonly referred to as a beer girl? Did you know that it describes the attendant perfectly because she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. What if, the attendants at the hackathon were in fact an all lady staff?
- chrisrhoden 15y ago
  I don't think that the backlash would have been as strong if they had mentioned it in the way that you are suggesting. But they listed Women in a bulleted list of perks next to food. It is 100% objectification.
- rmc 15y ago
  she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. I didn't think many golf courses could employ children. Unless you're trying to belittle adult women by calling them childish names. This has been done many times, e.g. the old habit of white men calling black adult men (before & after slavery) "boy".
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]

mbrzuzy 15y ago

What is the big deal. People get way to offended this day in age. It's almost as if people are waiting for someone to say something offensive just so they can jump on it acting all high and mighty.

rmc 15y ago
Or there is a legimate problem here?
- timtamboy63 15y ago
  I personally don't think so. Everyone knows that Hackathons are widely male dominated. Yes, the comment was a little out of line in a professional content, but forgive them for trying to crack some humour and have some fun with their ad. Have we become so politically correct that we can't let this slide? @rmc: Do you honestly believe that Sqoot is sexist because of that one joke? That they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry? Really? EDIT: I reread it, and I think the major issue was listing 'women' as a perk, instead of something like 'beer'. Definitely out of line, but again, they should be allowed to make up for it.
  - ianterrell 15y ago
    I think the argument that it was a joke is hard to swallow. It doesn't even approach humor to me. A commenter on the apology got it right: > From the original press release it sounded like you were just trying to throw a party with "hot waitresses serving drinks" I'm not rmc and I won't answer for him, but I'll answer your queries from my own point of view. Do I believe that they're sexist because of that one statement? Yes, I do, absolutely, but: does that imply that I think that "they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry?" No, I don't believe their sexism is of that sort. I think that most sexism in the US today is significantly more subtle than an outright looking down on women. In this case, its subtlety makes it all the more pernicious: it's harder to spot (even in one's self), it's harder to call out, it's easier to excuse. Saying women are trash will make you into a pariah, and no one will patronize your business. But what does a much smaller objectification of women, like this case, do? It has a chilling effect and it normalizes similar behavior; it contributes to the culture of sexism. Are statements ("jokes") with such negative effects acceptable? It's hard to argue that they are, and so it seems to me that the argument in defense must be that the statement doesn't have those effects. And I think from the backlash, well written comments on the apology, etc--I think that's a steep hill to climb. As for them personally: I don't think it should be judged that they're bad people. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know. Are they sexist? I said they were, absolutely, because their behavior was, which they're culpable for. So they're sexist even if only partially and unconsciously. I'll give them that benefit of the doubt, so it's an offense, but it's a forgivable offense. There's a lot of sexism around. I've been guilty of sexist behavior in the past, and I'm sure I'll be guilty of it in the future. That's what happens when it's ingrained in culture and remains normal behavior. And that's what happens when statements like this are allowed to slide. We do things without knowing their full weight, meaning, and impact. And then we learn, and we adjust. And most importantly, through adjusting our behavior we introspect to the causes, and so learn more about ourselves and our world, and what makes it all tick, so that we can eliminate that which doesn't live up to our ideals.
    - timtamboy63 15y ago
      You do make a really good point, and I definitely do agree with you. I just feel like people overreacted, almost like they jumped on the holier-than-thou bandwagon. When you consider events like CES and that one Yahoo Hack Day which employed strippers, this isn't nearly as offensive. Again, I definitely do see what you mean by it contributing to the culture of sexist, and that simply isn't acceptable. However, I feel like the sponsors, etc should have given Sqoot a chance to fix things before they resorted to the moves they did.
- mindcrime 15y ago
  There's no reason it couldn't be both. There does appear to be a legitimate problem; but some people are also eager for any opportunity to scream "sexism" or "discrimination" and start jumping up and down looking for attention. One can be cognizant of the real issues and want to find solutions to them, without worshiping at the altar of Political Correctness.
ctide 15y ago
Sexism (specifically in tech) is the new racism. If you go down that path of anything remotely sexist, expect to be torn to shreds just as quickly as if you made a racist remark. If people didn't get offended, then people like Sqoot will feel like it's totally OK to belittle women, even if they would never think to include racist jokes.
- thoradam 15y ago
  Actually that's the funny part, this "joke" was in no way belittling women, it's idolizing them. It was made at the expense of the stereotypical male geek to whom women are otherwise inaccessible. Somehow it was appropriated as being about the female attendees.
  - knowtheory 15y ago
    Having/Wanting someone to serve you is not "idolizing". And as said elsewhere, just because you say shitty things about everyone doesn't mean that it's okay to say shitty things.
    - thoradam 15y ago
      > Having/Wanting someone to serve you is not "idolizing". Is that the point of contention, that people feel that serving someone is demeaning? > And as said elsewhere, just because you say shitty things about everyone doesn't mean that it's okay to say shitty things. So you agree that the comment wasn't slighting women? Or are you just generally offended by all the possible interpretations?
  - Gayle 15y ago
    Yes... it's idolizing women... as sexual objects offered as a perk to male coders so that they can serve the men. As a female coder, I'd rather not be offered as a perk to male coders. So, yeah, this is belittling.
    - thoradam 15y ago

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

strickjb9 15y ago

Women - did you know that on golf courses the attendant who serves you beer is commonly referred to as a beer girl? Did you know that it describes the attendant perfectly because she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. What if, the attendants at the hackathon were in fact an all lady staff?

chrisrhoden 15y ago
I don't think that the backlash would have been as strong if they had mentioned it in the way that you are suggesting. But they listed Women in a bulleted list of perks next to food. It is 100% objectification.
rmc 15y ago
she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. I didn't think many golf courses could employ children. Unless you're trying to belittle adult women by calling them childish names. This has been done many times, e.g. the old habit of white men calling black adult men (before & after slavery) "boy".
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]