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Body Hacking: Thoughts Regarding My Magnet Implant

301 points by iamdann 15y ago

visionz 15y ago
Obligatory: Magneto
- jfoutz 15y ago
  1. Not obligatory 2. He's not using the magnet to generate AC electricity 3. If he were to face comic character Magneto, it would be much like the MRI case 4. If you're asserting he is Magneto, he has no ability to shape, or even move metal at a distance. Can you explain what you were trying to say using more than two words? I really don't follow what you're trying to get at. Both words seem meaningless and wrong in this context.
roel_v 15y ago
I have an rfid implant, but I haven't found any real uses for it. Of course I thought about what I was was going to do with it before I got the implant, and had some ideas and got the implant thinking that tinkering with applications would shine new light, but in the end it's quite lackluster to have one. It's also strange how exotic it seems to have one when you don't have it, and how pedestrian it feels when you actually have it. I sort of read that same feeling between the lines of the article. It's a bit of a novelty when you first get it, but after a while it's not all that special.
jonnathanson 15y ago
It's a cool idea, but let's not give short shrift to the MRI downside. MRIs are a big deal in today's medical world. Not being able to get one, depending on circumstances, can present anything from a mild inconvenience to a significant challenge. Especially if it's because of some piece of metal you elected to have implanted. I type these words with a (non-elective) series of metal prostheses implanted in my hand and wrist. Luckily, I don't set off metal detectors unless they're turned to extremely high sensitivities. But MRIs are out. I don't want to get into TMI detail, but let's just say that I have an ongoing medical condition that makes the inability to get MRIs a big setback. Tread carefully with this stuff. Look before you leap.
- icegreentea 15y ago
  Though it would seem that removing the magnet wouldn't be too much of a problem. I mean, it should show up under flouroscopy, and failing that, I guess you could mark the spot with tattoos with when get them implanted. Would still be a headache though.
- AkThhhpppt 15y ago
  There's a reason I have a Rod of Asclepius and "DO NOT MRI" tattooed on my wrist. Apparently it's quite possible to go through an MRI with implant intact, so long as the techs know about it. The inventor of these implants' advice about MRIs can be found here: http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from-steve-haworth/magnetic-faq http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from...
  - jonnathanson 15y ago
    That is good to know. Thank you for the clarification. I'm glad the inventor took this into consideration.
  - jpdoctor 15y ago
    > There's a reason I have a Rod of Asclepius and "DO NOT MRI" tattooed on my wrist. You realize there are other large magnets in the world besides those for MRIs?
    - AkThhhpppt 15y ago
      Yes, but how many large magnetic fields does one gets stuck into while unconscious that _aren't_ MRIs? Besides, I've been exposed to serious magnets; the inverse cube law is my friend. Plus, even when I did come close to a strong magnet, all that happened was my implant flipped ends. In my finger, yes, but it wasn't painful (my implant is a cylinder, about as tall as it is wide; a disc magnet would have been much worse).
      - jpdoctor 15y ago
phren0logy 15y ago
Fascinating article. Speaking as someone who as worked around MRIs, I think the author underestimates the risk of being put in an MRI machine. It would be worth carrying a wallet card or wrist band noting that he has an implant (though emergency MRIs are relatively uncommon). It's also worth noting that the fascial compartments of the hand can make infections tough to treat, and compartment syndrome can occasionally lead to serious problems requiring finger amputations. Regardless, it's an interesting experiment that I'm glad someone who wasn't me performed.
- onemoreact 15y ago
  Last I checked the MRI risk seemed low due to it's placement, shape, and the minimal strength of the magnet. Do you have any specific concerns? PS: What if I need an MRI? Originally it was thought that the magnets would always rip out of the skin and attach themselves to the MRI. However, we now know of a few people who have the magnets have gone through MRIs and this did not happen. One person reported that the magnet just vibrated very strongly. Another person reported that the techs shielded his hand, as they would with someone who had shrapnel or other implants. However, there are several different types of MRIs, so we can make no guarantee of what will happen during your MRI, so you must discuss it with the technician. It is likely that they will give you a hard time about it, so you should be prepared for this and for any possible risks to yourself. It’s also possible that the MRI might demagnetize your magnet. http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from-steve-haworth/magnetic-faq http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from...
  - phren0logy 15y ago
    Obviously I have no first-hand experience with implanted magnets, but MRI magnets are generally getting stronger. What is safe for a 1.5 tesla MRI may not hold for a 3-4 tesla MRI. The rapid magnetic oscillation has been known to heat up wires and cause burns. There's some people horsing around with 4T MRI that might give you pause. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg&feature=relat...
    - 15y ago
TamDenholm 15y ago
I've followed magnetic implants for a while, always considering getting my own, as well as an RFID implant. I'm also a fan of BMEZine and there can be quite a few overlaying interests in the two communities. Whiles its not as good as it used to be when Shannon (guy mentioned in OP's article) was editor, I suggest people subscribe if they're interested in such things.
- Kliment 15y ago
  Why not get a magnet ring? It's nondestructive and gives you access to many of the same sensations.
  - iamdann 15y ago
    I've actually heard this suggestion a lot. For me, wearing a magnetic ring is completely different from having the implant.
    - freehunter 15y ago
      For one, the sense would be centered around the base of your finger, which is naturally more stable and less sensitive. A magnetic ring worn where normal rings are worn would not give you much of a sensitivity at all. Try feeling the shape of an object with your palm versus with the tip of your finger.
  - AkThhhpppt 15y ago
    Nate (http://feelingwaves.blogspot.com/ http://feelingwaves.blogspot.com/) recommends supergluing a small neodymium to your fingertip as the best model of how the implant actually feels; I haven't tried it, myself.
    - nooneelse 15y ago
      I have. I should repeat it with a stronger magnet. I just used one from the 'random magnets I've accumulated since I was a kid' pile and picked one primarily for the size, but it only allowed me to sense sizable motors. A simple band-aid was all the social camouflage it needed, which was nice.
pragmatic 15y ago
Is this magnet powerful enough to damage magnetic media (HDDs, Tapes, etc)?
- yathern 15y ago
  > Luckily, the magnet is not strong enough to wipe out credit cards nor will it negatively affect electronics or computer monitors. He doesn't specifically say anything about tapes or Hard Drives, but I doubt it.
- iamdann 15y ago
  I've tried, and from my experiments it has not been strong enough to destroy anything.
- user24 15y ago
  from TFA: > Luckily, the magnet is not strong enough to wipe out credit cards nor will it negatively affect electronics or computer monitors.
- dfox 15y ago
  It's actually surprisingly hard to intentionally damage most magnetic media (except audio tape and really cheap magstripe cards and you probably aren't going to see either today) with permanent magnet, so one can safely assume, that this is not a problem.
rinrae 15y ago
I got mine only two weeks ago, and I'm looking forward to exploring that new "sense". I was kinda surprised the most frequently asked question when ppl heard about it – and the one that came pretty unexpected for me – was "why?!". thanks for the article!
- iamdann 15y ago
  I love meeting other people with the implant and doing a "magnet handshake" by brushing the fingers next to each other.
  - rinrae 15y ago
    luckily a friend of mine has one too, so I've been able to do that already. hope to meet more ppl with magnets soon – if you ever happen to be in Germany, drop me a line :).
  - aplusbi 15y ago
    I have one too! I'm kind of surprised that there are not one, but two other people on HN with magnet implants. And I too am really surprised when people ask "why?" Is it not obvious?
    - orofino 15y ago
      Actually, it wasn't obvious to me at all. I incredulously began reading the article, assuming some kind of fraud medicinal claim. I was very excited and interested to learn the actual purpose. Fascinating.
    - _pius 15y ago
      And I too am really surprised when people ask "why?" Is it not obvious? No, actually, it isn't. Is it just because it's "cool" (like a piercing) or is it serving some practical purpose for you beyond that? Genuinely curious.
      - aplusbi 15y ago
jakeonthemove 15y ago
I found these quite interesting, but I'd never get one implanted: using small screwdrivers and wrenches would be a pain, it affects the phone's magnetometer and you have to be careful not to cut your finger or when lifting anything heavy (and using all your fingers' strength)...
- iamdann 15y ago
  I've had no issues with screwdrivers or wrenches, it doesn't affect my iPhone at all (I've brushed that finger over every inch of that device trying to feel inside it) and it was surprisingly easy to adjust the way I carry heavy things.
  - jakeonthemove 15y ago
    Hmm, well that's pretty good, then...
- AkThhhpppt 15y ago
  The worst inconvenience I've had with mine is handling small change; 1, 2, and 5 Euro-cent coins stick to it. ",) And I've done a little rock-climbing since I got mine. Not enough to be entirely sure with it, but some.
monochromatic 15y ago
> I also figure that if I’m ever incapacitated and put in an MRI machine without the ability to give the doctor any forewarning, a tiny magnet getting ripped out of my finger will be the least of my concerns. It might be a rather bigger concern for the owner of the MRI though...
- Edootjuh 15y ago
  Or any body parts that might be in the way between the pinky and the MRI machine.
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  > It might be a rather bigger concern for the owner of the MRI though... Not to mention all the other patients who need the MRI machine your "sixth sense" just shot a hole through.
  - mkopinsky 15y ago
    The thing is half the size of a grain of rice, and isn't such a strong magnet. I don't think it's gonna cause major damage. Wheelchairs or oxygen tanks cause damage. Quarters and dimes are just annoying and need to be fished out. (This my recollection from my friends who've done research with MRIs. I have no first-hand experience with them except once as a patient.)
- lucb1e 15y ago
  Won't they get some metal detector over your first? Who knows you might just, let's say, have a magnet in your little finger! But seriously, there are more metal things under your skin possible, so if you can't make them 100% sure nothing is going to happen when they turn it on, I guess they will find out by themselves beforehand.
  - ceejayoz 15y ago
    My dad's a radiologist and I've never seen anyone get metal detected prior to an MRI. Maybe they have one for unconscious ER patients, but I've never heard of it.
js2 15y ago
Note: OnSwipe damaged site, and adding ?onswipe_ redirect=never goes into a redirect loop.
- iamdann 15y ago
  Thanks, I actually noticed that last night and forgot to deactivate it.
sp332 15y ago
Here's Quinn Norton's talk at 23C3 (five years ago) about functional body modification, including her personal experience & some of the problems with embedded magnets: warning it's a little graphic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voA7Uz7uABE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voA7Uz7uABE There's a text-and-picture summary here if you don't want to watch the video, also with graphic photos: http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/2007/01/quinn-norton-on.php http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/2007/01/quinn-...
celticjames 15y ago
I don't know that I would want an implant, but I'd like to try a haptic compass. You strap it on and it gives you a physical sensation of where north is, as if you were a bird with magnetoception. Wire article on haptic compasses: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.04/esp.html http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.04/esp.html
- freehunter 15y ago
  That would be nice, and I imagine I could get used to the noise. Problem is, others wouldn't. Vibration has this effect in cellphones, you can hear the rumble and it could disturb classmates or coworkers. It would be cool to have something like this that defaults to north, but could be programmed using GPS and a smartphone to point somewhere else.
  - etcet 15y ago
    > It would be cool to have something like this that defaults to north, but could be programmed using GPS and a smartphone to point somewhere else. Absolutely, bike rides to unknown places would be a joy.
- ciex 15y ago
  The funny thing about these is that they don't really make you constantly aware of where north is. To answer that question you would have to concentrate on the vibration. What acutally happens is way cooler: You become subconsciously aware of the structure of the space surrounding you. This is something that everyone has to a leser extent i.e. you could point at the direction of various objects around you and tell me roughly how far away they are even without looking. When you have been wearing the belt for a few weeks you are able to do this even for objects that are not in you immediate vicinity. You get an actual feeling for the location of all kinds of things. Imagine having an accurate intuition for the location of your home town or the next highway exit! Another example: you could visit a city where you have never been before, wander around the streets without caring for where you go and then immediately find the shortest route back to where you started. And it would be about as hard for you as finding the way to the door of the room you're in right now.
evincarofautumn 15y ago
I hope technology such as this can help make the world of body modification a little more palatable to average folk. The vast majority of people go only as far as some piercings and maybe a tattoo. We need to get away from the absurdity of contemporary body mod culture: tooth sharpening, scarification, branding, horn implants, sclera tattoos, gauging, suspension, tongue bifurcation, lip discs, genital modifications…it’s too much. That kind of modification is a dead-end because it doesn’t fulfill its nominally transhumanist goals. But regular people could warm up to things like magnets and RFID tags, or, say, internal sensors to let you know of impending health problems. That sort of body modification provides actual value in the form of information that would otherwise be unavailable or inconvenient to obtain. I think that’s where we’re headed in the next couple of decades.
- sukuriant 15y ago
  > We need to get away from the absurdity of contemporary body mod culture: tooth sharpening, scarification, branding, horn implants, sclera tattoos, gauging, suspension, tongue bifurcation, lip discs, genital modifications…it’s too much. ... why? > That kind of modification is a dead-end because it doesn’t fulfill its nominally transhumanist goals. Does art have to?
  - evincarofautumn 15y ago
    No, as an art form it’s great! But there are also plenty of mods that serve practical purposes. People who are put off by the artistic culture won’t see the benefits of other mods. For their sake, we should show that there is another side.
    - sukuriant 15y ago
      Oh, I see. I didn't read that in your earlier post. Yes, I could see the benefit; though I can understand why people would be very concerned about a few of these, especially the RFIDs, for religious reasons (Mark of the Beast)
nixle 15y ago
I never heard of this before, but I want one so bad right now. However, the MRI thing is a real deal-break for me... oh well :(
sanj 15y ago
If you'd like a lower effort version: I glued a tiny, but powerful, magnet to my fingernail and then coated it with a few layers of nail polish. It looked more than a little flashy, and it provided less sensation than it would've implanted, but it worked surprisingly well.
- rokhayakebe 15y ago
  Why not just have a magnet finger ring?
- kristiandupont 15y ago
  Couldn't you simply carry a magnetic ring? Or would that not work for some reason?
  - simonbrown 15y ago
    See the comments of the article: http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-modification#comment-1753 http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-mod... http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-modification#comment-1759 http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-mod...
  - idupree 15y ago
    Where's a good place to get magnetic rings for this purpose? I searched Amazon and found things like magnetic bracelets marketed as alternative medicine to cure you. None of the reviews I found mentioned using them as an electromagnetic sensor, so I can't tell if they're useful for the purpose.
    - idupree 15y ago
      I found a friend who's had magnet rings; he pointed me to some info: http://hackaday.com/2012/01/02/give-yourself-a-sixth-sense-on-the-cheap/ http://hackaday.com/2012/01/02/give-yourself-a-sixth-sense-o... (follow the links; it links to "Holy Scrap" blog which links to a couple online magnetic-ring-sellers). I also found a ring sizing guide: http://pages.ebay.com/buy/guides/ring-sizing-guide/ http://pages.ebay.com/buy/guides/ring-sizing-guide/
Cushman 15y ago
Man, the last time I read about these was back during the original trials when it was still pretty finicky. Feeling seriously tempted now.
tibbon 15y ago
I was thinking about getting this done, but then I realized that recently I've been doing so much metal machining work, that the concept of picking up metal filings constantly with my finger just sounds painful.
rpearl 15y ago
I thought something that was cooler (and less permanent) was the feelspace belt: it has a compass module and a bunch of of vibrating motors, so you can always 'feel' magnetic north http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/ http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/
jcampbell1 15y ago
> While a magnet implant doesn’t technically count as a “sixth sense” (it’s more of an extension of our existing sense of touch), the way that the body internalizes these tiny magnetic vibrations feels truly foreign. Let's just start by dispelling the myth that there are "five senses", and then we can agree that this does provide an additional sense. The inner ear is an orientation sensor and orientation is clearly a sense, therefore there are more than "five senses".
- freehunter 15y ago
  This is one of those things that people "know" but don't actually care enough to take action on. "The five senses" is easy to teach in school and has become a turn of phrase meaning "the things we can perceive". Classifying senses is difficult. Some believe we have six, some believe we have many, some believe different people may have different senses. Some senses that I've read simply described one of the "five" senses being perceived in a slightly different way (the sense of pain is the sense of touch), some extra senses are simply two or more of the "five" senses put together (such as being able to sense when there's someone else in the room). I'm not a neuroscientist, so I'll just leave it at saying "five senses" is easy to understand and explain for a complex subject that every common man needs to understand. Trying to complicate it further will garner no fruit.
  - jcampbell1 15y ago
    Are you seriously arguing that ignorance is a good thing because of what "some believe" and "complexity"? You could just as well be making the case for creationism.
    - AkThhhpppt 15y ago
      Quick! Were you taught that protons exist? If you answered yes, you're wrong, but many people believe they do, and the real answer is complex, and protons are a "good enough" answer that the entirety of chemistry pays very little attention to anything deeper. So protons and neutrons are still taught, and getting into quarks properly quite often only happens in college-level courses.
cowpewter 15y ago
Related: Nokia has some patent application for a magnetic tattoo and/or skin patch that would provide haptic feedback from a magnetic field projected by your phone: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=10&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=Nokia.AS.&OS=AN/Nokia&RS=AN/Nokia?fvrewsd http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Se... Not sure how they would shield from outside interference/have the field coming from your pocket reach your hand in all situations though.
- endlessvoid94 15y ago
  There was a House episode where a prisoner had a low-quality tattoo containing too much iron (or something). The prisoner went into the MRI and the experience was excruciating. Not sure if there's any grain of truth to that or not. It was Hollywood.
  - AkThhhpppt 15y ago
    Metal fabricator of my acquaintance probably can't have an MRI, as he's got too many metal splinters floating around his body. So probably true, though I don't know about tattoos...
  - eco 15y ago
    MythBusters covered this one in one of the earlier seasons. They couldn't produce any sort of effect even with unlikely high metal concentrations in the ink.
coldarchon 15y ago
How long until someone does this with a WLAN detector that vibrates?
ctdonath 15y ago
Body modification? Pacemaker here. Every six months I have to go in for a tuneup, a wireless data dump & service testing. Having having one's heart slowed to sub-40bpm via a few taps on a screen is...odd. Printed report tells assorted stories of daily activity periods, odd events, heart rate hitting programmed thresholds, etc. There have been some confluence of proximity & programming causing twitching under some circumstances (couldn't sleep on my left side for a year due to a lead pressing on & convulsing diaphragm) which were fixed completely thru software settings. Have a minimum threshold programmed in, and if it's set too high (say, 60bpm) and I relax deeply can feel it kicking in with "go faster!" Proved quite useful a couple weeks back. Suffered a random onset of aortic flutter (can happen to anyone, just sorta happens), where a natural short-circuit in the beat-signal nerves sent the heart rate up to 349bpm (neatly documented on the printed data dump). For most people, this means a very scary and tense race to the emergency room, with AED paddles & drugs to bring it down until the problem can be surgically eliminated. My pacemaker hit the brakes at 150bpm, leaving me functional to wander in to the ER at my convenience; there, a tech was brought in to set up a more aggressive flutter-control program (70-100bpm more aware of actual physical needs). That kept things manageable until the drive-thru heart surgery to fix the problem (1 hour to send a probe up a vein to find & burn out the short, 3 hours rest, then discharged). Wasn't what the pacer was installed to handle (ventricular resynchronization), but the "while we're installing this, let's add a wire and program in some other someday-useful stuff" has indeed proven useful. Other body modification is a mechanical heart valve. I tick. I've been confused with clocks. Yes, MRIs are completely out of the question now. Work near a small one and get nervous walking by the door. OK, so these weren't exactly voluntary. Choice aside, being a cyborg does make for interesting experiences & conversations. ETA: BTW, not looking forward to replacing the battery. At least the device has been saying the battery will last another four years - for the last four years.
- iamdann 15y ago
  Really fascinating. Thanks for sharing!
- ohgodthecat 15y ago
  Thanks for that it was really a much better story than a magnetic implant which comes off as silly to me. If you ever write up more I sure would be interested.
gcb 15y ago
what happens if you actually operate one of those cloth retail super magnets de-taggers? does your hand get pulled away or inside it?
deleted 15y ago
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- evincarofautumn 15y ago
  The author reports that the sensations are different between a ring and an implant. I can’t speak to the differences firsthand, as I have no implant, but I gather that the perception of an external ring is more tool-like than sense-like.
  - deleted 15y ago
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cmos 15y ago
I design toys that use magnets.. I end up carving my own tools out of wood so I can epoxy them in proper places. They are super annoying to make stay where you want them.. I would go crazy if I had one inside me.
- waivej 15y ago
  Hah! I can imagine epoxy covered magnets sticking to my little finger.
evoxed 15y ago
Looks like a pretty simple device. Now, when can we start seeing more improvements (particularly use/assembly related) on open source EEGs? I'm far more interested in monitoring my brain activity outside of my psychologist's office. Odd signal activity and all that...
jaa 15y ago
I've had two tiny disc magnet implants in two fingers for over three years now. I originally had it implanted as part of an idea for a novel man-machine interface I came up with for my Master's degree research project at the Uni of Reading (UK). The early reports of electrical fields inducing sensations had intrigued me, so I set out to explore the possibility of controlling the magnet with an external electromagnet, which in my final design was a simple coil ring worn around the finger, and use it as a sensory substitution man-machine interface. After measuring the frequency response, sensitivity etc characteristics, I finally put it into a practical application demo by using the interface to couple an ultrasonic ranger and a mobile phone to myself. The ultrasonic ranger was used to feed the distance information and I learnt pretty quickly to judge distances and move about with my eyes closed. In the phone scenario, I encoded characters as Morse Code pulses and could "read" the incoming text messages. My morse skills weren't that good but it worked! The internalization of the sensory information, with the magnet being inside the body, made a qualitative subjective difference as opposed to simply having a magnet glued to the finger. There's a bit of info on this and pictures/xrays on my blog: http://www.jawish.org/blog/plugin/tag/smii http://www.jawish.org/blog/plugin/tag/smii. The details on the interface is on the paper we published: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5898141 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5898... My best experience with real world magnetic fields? Wires. It was mind blowing to be able to feel the field around a wire which we usually think nothing of. The power cable to the electric heater generated a field I could "touch" about 4-5 inches away! What does touching it feel like? Like touching a stream of air. :)
- AkThhhpppt 15y ago
  I've read that paper, and I'd like to say thanks; being able to point at graphs that say I'm not imagining the sensation from my implant has occasionally been helpful. ",)
jjcm 15y ago
Contacted Steve Haworth today to arrange an appointment to get one implanted. Been wanting one for a few years now, this article tipped the scales.

301 points by iamdann 15y ago

visionz 15y ago

Obligatory: Magneto

jfoutz 15y ago
1. Not obligatory 2. He's not using the magnet to generate AC electricity 3. If he were to face comic character Magneto, it would be much like the MRI case 4. If you're asserting he is Magneto, he has no ability to shape, or even move metal at a distance. Can you explain what you were trying to say using more than two words? I really don't follow what you're trying to get at. Both words seem meaningless and wrong in this context.

roel_v 15y ago

I have an rfid implant, but I haven't found any real uses for it. Of course I thought about what I was was going to do with it before I got the implant, and had some ideas and got the implant thinking that tinkering with applications would shine new light, but in the end it's quite lackluster to have one. It's also strange how exotic it seems to have one when you don't have it, and how pedestrian it feels when you actually have it. I sort of read that same feeling between the lines of the article. It's a bit of a novelty when you first get it, but after a while it's not all that special.

jonnathanson 15y ago

It's a cool idea, but let's not give short shrift to the MRI downside. MRIs are a big deal in today's medical world. Not being able to get one, depending on circumstances, can present anything from a mild inconvenience to a significant challenge. Especially if it's because of some piece of metal you elected to have implanted. I type these words with a (non-elective) series of metal prostheses implanted in my hand and wrist. Luckily, I don't set off metal detectors unless they're turned to extremely high sensitivities. But MRIs are out. I don't want to get into TMI detail, but let's just say that I have an ongoing medical condition that makes the inability to get MRIs a big setback. Tread carefully with this stuff. Look before you leap.

icegreentea 15y ago
Though it would seem that removing the magnet wouldn't be too much of a problem. I mean, it should show up under flouroscopy, and failing that, I guess you could mark the spot with tattoos with when get them implanted. Would still be a headache though.
AkThhhpppt 15y ago
There's a reason I have a Rod of Asclepius and "DO NOT MRI" tattooed on my wrist. Apparently it's quite possible to go through an MRI with implant intact, so long as the techs know about it. The inventor of these implants' advice about MRIs can be found here: http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from-steve-haworth/magnetic-faq http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from...
- jonnathanson 15y ago
  That is good to know. Thank you for the clarification. I'm glad the inventor took this into consideration.
- jpdoctor 15y ago
  > There's a reason I have a Rod of Asclepius and "DO NOT MRI" tattooed on my wrist. You realize there are other large magnets in the world besides those for MRIs?
  - AkThhhpppt 15y ago
    Yes, but how many large magnetic fields does one gets stuck into while unconscious that _aren't_ MRIs? Besides, I've been exposed to serious magnets; the inverse cube law is my friend. Plus, even when I did come close to a strong magnet, all that happened was my implant flipped ends. In my finger, yes, but it wasn't painful (my implant is a cylinder, about as tall as it is wide; a disc magnet would have been much worse).
    - jpdoctor 15y ago

phren0logy 15y ago

Fascinating article. Speaking as someone who as worked around MRIs, I think the author underestimates the risk of being put in an MRI machine. It would be worth carrying a wallet card or wrist band noting that he has an implant (though emergency MRIs are relatively uncommon). It's also worth noting that the fascial compartments of the hand can make infections tough to treat, and compartment syndrome can occasionally lead to serious problems requiring finger amputations. Regardless, it's an interesting experiment that I'm glad someone who wasn't me performed.

onemoreact 15y ago
Last I checked the MRI risk seemed low due to it's placement, shape, and the minimal strength of the magnet. Do you have any specific concerns? PS: What if I need an MRI? Originally it was thought that the magnets would always rip out of the skin and attach themselves to the MRI. However, we now know of a few people who have the magnets have gone through MRIs and this did not happen. One person reported that the magnet just vibrated very strongly. Another person reported that the techs shielded his hand, as they would with someone who had shrapnel or other implants. However, there are several different types of MRIs, so we can make no guarantee of what will happen during your MRI, so you must discuss it with the technician. It is likely that they will give you a hard time about it, so you should be prepared for this and for any possible risks to yourself. It’s also possible that the MRI might demagnetize your magnet. http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from-steve-haworth/magnetic-faq http://www.stevehaworth.com/wordpress/index.php/welcome-from...
- phren0logy 15y ago
  Obviously I have no first-hand experience with implanted magnets, but MRI magnets are generally getting stronger. What is safe for a 1.5 tesla MRI may not hold for a 3-4 tesla MRI. The rapid magnetic oscillation has been known to heat up wires and cause burns. There's some people horsing around with 4T MRI that might give you pause. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg&feature=related http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BBx8BwLhqg&feature=relat...
  - 15y ago

TamDenholm 15y ago

I've followed magnetic implants for a while, always considering getting my own, as well as an RFID implant. I'm also a fan of BMEZine and there can be quite a few overlaying interests in the two communities. Whiles its not as good as it used to be when Shannon (guy mentioned in OP's article) was editor, I suggest people subscribe if they're interested in such things.

Kliment 15y ago
Why not get a magnet ring? It's nondestructive and gives you access to many of the same sensations.
- iamdann 15y ago
  I've actually heard this suggestion a lot. For me, wearing a magnetic ring is completely different from having the implant.
  - freehunter 15y ago
    For one, the sense would be centered around the base of your finger, which is naturally more stable and less sensitive. A magnetic ring worn where normal rings are worn would not give you much of a sensitivity at all. Try feeling the shape of an object with your palm versus with the tip of your finger.
- AkThhhpppt 15y ago
  Nate (http://feelingwaves.blogspot.com/ http://feelingwaves.blogspot.com/) recommends supergluing a small neodymium to your fingertip as the best model of how the implant actually feels; I haven't tried it, myself.
  - nooneelse 15y ago
    I have. I should repeat it with a stronger magnet. I just used one from the 'random magnets I've accumulated since I was a kid' pile and picked one primarily for the size, but it only allowed me to sense sizable motors. A simple band-aid was all the social camouflage it needed, which was nice.

pragmatic 15y ago

Is this magnet powerful enough to damage magnetic media (HDDs, Tapes, etc)?

yathern 15y ago
> Luckily, the magnet is not strong enough to wipe out credit cards nor will it negatively affect electronics or computer monitors. He doesn't specifically say anything about tapes or Hard Drives, but I doubt it.
iamdann 15y ago
I've tried, and from my experiments it has not been strong enough to destroy anything.
user24 15y ago
from TFA: > Luckily, the magnet is not strong enough to wipe out credit cards nor will it negatively affect electronics or computer monitors.
dfox 15y ago
It's actually surprisingly hard to intentionally damage most magnetic media (except audio tape and really cheap magstripe cards and you probably aren't going to see either today) with permanent magnet, so one can safely assume, that this is not a problem.

rinrae 15y ago

I got mine only two weeks ago, and I'm looking forward to exploring that new "sense". I was kinda surprised the most frequently asked question when ppl heard about it – and the one that came pretty unexpected for me – was "why?!". thanks for the article!

iamdann 15y ago
I love meeting other people with the implant and doing a "magnet handshake" by brushing the fingers next to each other.
- rinrae 15y ago
  luckily a friend of mine has one too, so I've been able to do that already. hope to meet more ppl with magnets soon – if you ever happen to be in Germany, drop me a line :).
- aplusbi 15y ago
  I have one too! I'm kind of surprised that there are not one, but two other people on HN with magnet implants. And I too am really surprised when people ask "why?" Is it not obvious?
  - orofino 15y ago
    Actually, it wasn't obvious to me at all. I incredulously began reading the article, assuming some kind of fraud medicinal claim. I was very excited and interested to learn the actual purpose. Fascinating.
  - _pius 15y ago
    And I too am really surprised when people ask "why?" Is it not obvious? No, actually, it isn't. Is it just because it's "cool" (like a piercing) or is it serving some practical purpose for you beyond that? Genuinely curious.
    - aplusbi 15y ago

jakeonthemove 15y ago

I found these quite interesting, but I'd never get one implanted: using small screwdrivers and wrenches would be a pain, it affects the phone's magnetometer and you have to be careful not to cut your finger or when lifting anything heavy (and using all your fingers' strength)...

iamdann 15y ago
I've had no issues with screwdrivers or wrenches, it doesn't affect my iPhone at all (I've brushed that finger over every inch of that device trying to feel inside it) and it was surprisingly easy to adjust the way I carry heavy things.
- jakeonthemove 15y ago
  Hmm, well that's pretty good, then...
AkThhhpppt 15y ago
The worst inconvenience I've had with mine is handling small change; 1, 2, and 5 Euro-cent coins stick to it. ",) And I've done a little rock-climbing since I got mine. Not enough to be entirely sure with it, but some.

monochromatic 15y ago

> I also figure that if I’m ever incapacitated and put in an MRI machine without the ability to give the doctor any forewarning, a tiny magnet getting ripped out of my finger will be the least of my concerns. It might be a rather bigger concern for the owner of the MRI though...

Edootjuh 15y ago
Or any body parts that might be in the way between the pinky and the MRI machine.
ceejayoz 15y ago
> It might be a rather bigger concern for the owner of the MRI though... Not to mention all the other patients who need the MRI machine your "sixth sense" just shot a hole through.
- mkopinsky 15y ago
  The thing is half the size of a grain of rice, and isn't such a strong magnet. I don't think it's gonna cause major damage. Wheelchairs or oxygen tanks cause damage. Quarters and dimes are just annoying and need to be fished out. (This my recollection from my friends who've done research with MRIs. I have no first-hand experience with them except once as a patient.)
lucb1e 15y ago
Won't they get some metal detector over your first? Who knows you might just, let's say, have a magnet in your little finger! But seriously, there are more metal things under your skin possible, so if you can't make them 100% sure nothing is going to happen when they turn it on, I guess they will find out by themselves beforehand.
- ceejayoz 15y ago
  My dad's a radiologist and I've never seen anyone get metal detected prior to an MRI. Maybe they have one for unconscious ER patients, but I've never heard of it.

js2 15y ago

Note: OnSwipe damaged site, and adding ?onswipe_ redirect=never goes into a redirect loop.

iamdann 15y ago
Thanks, I actually noticed that last night and forgot to deactivate it.

sp332 15y ago

Here's Quinn Norton's talk at 23C3 (five years ago) about functional body modification, including her personal experience & some of the problems with embedded magnets: warning it's a little graphic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voA7Uz7uABE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voA7Uz7uABE There's a text-and-picture summary here if you don't want to watch the video, also with graphic photos: http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/2007/01/quinn-norton-on.php http://www.we-make-money-not-art.com/archives/2007/01/quinn-...

celticjames 15y ago

I don't know that I would want an implant, but I'd like to try a haptic compass. You strap it on and it gives you a physical sensation of where north is, as if you were a bird with magnetoception. Wire article on haptic compasses: http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.04/esp.html http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/15.04/esp.html

freehunter 15y ago
That would be nice, and I imagine I could get used to the noise. Problem is, others wouldn't. Vibration has this effect in cellphones, you can hear the rumble and it could disturb classmates or coworkers. It would be cool to have something like this that defaults to north, but could be programmed using GPS and a smartphone to point somewhere else.
- etcet 15y ago
  > It would be cool to have something like this that defaults to north, but could be programmed using GPS and a smartphone to point somewhere else. Absolutely, bike rides to unknown places would be a joy.
ciex 15y ago
The funny thing about these is that they don't really make you constantly aware of where north is. To answer that question you would have to concentrate on the vibration. What acutally happens is way cooler: You become subconsciously aware of the structure of the space surrounding you. This is something that everyone has to a leser extent i.e. you could point at the direction of various objects around you and tell me roughly how far away they are even without looking. When you have been wearing the belt for a few weeks you are able to do this even for objects that are not in you immediate vicinity. You get an actual feeling for the location of all kinds of things. Imagine having an accurate intuition for the location of your home town or the next highway exit! Another example: you could visit a city where you have never been before, wander around the streets without caring for where you go and then immediately find the shortest route back to where you started. And it would be about as hard for you as finding the way to the door of the room you're in right now.

evincarofautumn 15y ago

I hope technology such as this can help make the world of body modification a little more palatable to average folk. The vast majority of people go only as far as some piercings and maybe a tattoo. We need to get away from the absurdity of contemporary body mod culture: tooth sharpening, scarification, branding, horn implants, sclera tattoos, gauging, suspension, tongue bifurcation, lip discs, genital modifications…it’s too much. That kind of modification is a dead-end because it doesn’t fulfill its nominally transhumanist goals. But regular people could warm up to things like magnets and RFID tags, or, say, internal sensors to let you know of impending health problems. That sort of body modification provides actual value in the form of information that would otherwise be unavailable or inconvenient to obtain. I think that’s where we’re headed in the next couple of decades.

sukuriant 15y ago
> We need to get away from the absurdity of contemporary body mod culture: tooth sharpening, scarification, branding, horn implants, sclera tattoos, gauging, suspension, tongue bifurcation, lip discs, genital modifications…it’s too much. ... why? > That kind of modification is a dead-end because it doesn’t fulfill its nominally transhumanist goals. Does art have to?
- evincarofautumn 15y ago
  No, as an art form it’s great! But there are also plenty of mods that serve practical purposes. People who are put off by the artistic culture won’t see the benefits of other mods. For their sake, we should show that there is another side.
  - sukuriant 15y ago
    Oh, I see. I didn't read that in your earlier post. Yes, I could see the benefit; though I can understand why people would be very concerned about a few of these, especially the RFIDs, for religious reasons (Mark of the Beast)

nixle 15y ago

I never heard of this before, but I want one so bad right now. However, the MRI thing is a real deal-break for me... oh well :(

sanj 15y ago

If you'd like a lower effort version: I glued a tiny, but powerful, magnet to my fingernail and then coated it with a few layers of nail polish. It looked more than a little flashy, and it provided less sensation than it would've implanted, but it worked surprisingly well.

rokhayakebe 15y ago
Why not just have a magnet finger ring?
kristiandupont 15y ago
Couldn't you simply carry a magnetic ring? Or would that not work for some reason?
- simonbrown 15y ago
  See the comments of the article: http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-modification#comment-1753 http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-mod... http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-modification#comment-1759 http://www.iamdann.com/2012/03/21/my-magnet-implant-body-mod...
- idupree 15y ago
  Where's a good place to get magnetic rings for this purpose? I searched Amazon and found things like magnetic bracelets marketed as alternative medicine to cure you. None of the reviews I found mentioned using them as an electromagnetic sensor, so I can't tell if they're useful for the purpose.
  - idupree 15y ago
    I found a friend who's had magnet rings; he pointed me to some info: http://hackaday.com/2012/01/02/give-yourself-a-sixth-sense-on-the-cheap/ http://hackaday.com/2012/01/02/give-yourself-a-sixth-sense-o... (follow the links; it links to "Holy Scrap" blog which links to a couple online magnetic-ring-sellers). I also found a ring sizing guide: http://pages.ebay.com/buy/guides/ring-sizing-guide/ http://pages.ebay.com/buy/guides/ring-sizing-guide/

Cushman 15y ago

Man, the last time I read about these was back during the original trials when it was still pretty finicky. Feeling seriously tempted now.

tibbon 15y ago

I was thinking about getting this done, but then I realized that recently I've been doing so much metal machining work, that the concept of picking up metal filings constantly with my finger just sounds painful.

rpearl 15y ago

I thought something that was cooler (and less permanent) was the feelspace belt: it has a compass module and a bunch of of vibrating motors, so you can always 'feel' magnetic north http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/ http://feelspace.cogsci.uni-osnabrueck.de/

jcampbell1 15y ago

> While a magnet implant doesn’t technically count as a “sixth sense” (it’s more of an extension of our existing sense of touch), the way that the body internalizes these tiny magnetic vibrations feels truly foreign. Let's just start by dispelling the myth that there are "five senses", and then we can agree that this does provide an additional sense. The inner ear is an orientation sensor and orientation is clearly a sense, therefore there are more than "five senses".

freehunter 15y ago
This is one of those things that people "know" but don't actually care enough to take action on. "The five senses" is easy to teach in school and has become a turn of phrase meaning "the things we can perceive". Classifying senses is difficult. Some believe we have six, some believe we have many, some believe different people may have different senses. Some senses that I've read simply described one of the "five" senses being perceived in a slightly different way (the sense of pain is the sense of touch), some extra senses are simply two or more of the "five" senses put together (such as being able to sense when there's someone else in the room). I'm not a neuroscientist, so I'll just leave it at saying "five senses" is easy to understand and explain for a complex subject that every common man needs to understand. Trying to complicate it further will garner no fruit.
- jcampbell1 15y ago
  Are you seriously arguing that ignorance is a good thing because of what "some believe" and "complexity"? You could just as well be making the case for creationism.
  - AkThhhpppt 15y ago
    Quick! Were you taught that protons exist? If you answered yes, you're wrong, but many people believe they do, and the real answer is complex, and protons are a "good enough" answer that the entirety of chemistry pays very little attention to anything deeper. So protons and neutrons are still taught, and getting into quarks properly quite often only happens in college-level courses.

cowpewter 15y ago

Related: Nokia has some patent application for a magnetic tattoo and/or skin patch that would provide haptic feedback from a magnetic field projected by your phone: http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=10&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PG01&s1=Nokia.AS.&OS=AN/Nokia&RS=AN/Nokia?fvrewsd http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Se... Not sure how they would shield from outside interference/have the field coming from your pocket reach your hand in all situations though.

endlessvoid94 15y ago
There was a House episode where a prisoner had a low-quality tattoo containing too much iron (or something). The prisoner went into the MRI and the experience was excruciating. Not sure if there's any grain of truth to that or not. It was Hollywood.
- AkThhhpppt 15y ago
  Metal fabricator of my acquaintance probably can't have an MRI, as he's got too many metal splinters floating around his body. So probably true, though I don't know about tattoos...
- eco 15y ago
  MythBusters covered this one in one of the earlier seasons. They couldn't produce any sort of effect even with unlikely high metal concentrations in the ink.

coldarchon 15y ago

How long until someone does this with a WLAN detector that vibrates?

ctdonath 15y ago

Body modification? Pacemaker here. Every six months I have to go in for a tuneup, a wireless data dump & service testing. Having having one's heart slowed to sub-40bpm via a few taps on a screen is...odd. Printed report tells assorted stories of daily activity periods, odd events, heart rate hitting programmed thresholds, etc. There have been some confluence of proximity & programming causing twitching under some circumstances (couldn't sleep on my left side for a year due to a lead pressing on & convulsing diaphragm) which were fixed completely thru software settings. Have a minimum threshold programmed in, and if it's set too high (say, 60bpm) and I relax deeply can feel it kicking in with "go faster!" Proved quite useful a couple weeks back. Suffered a random onset of aortic flutter (can happen to anyone, just sorta happens), where a natural short-circuit in the beat-signal nerves sent the heart rate up to 349bpm (neatly documented on the printed data dump). For most people, this means a very scary and tense race to the emergency room, with AED paddles & drugs to bring it down until the problem can be surgically eliminated. My pacemaker hit the brakes at 150bpm, leaving me functional to wander in to the ER at my convenience; there, a tech was brought in to set up a more aggressive flutter-control program (70-100bpm more aware of actual physical needs). That kept things manageable until the drive-thru heart surgery to fix the problem (1 hour to send a probe up a vein to find & burn out the short, 3 hours rest, then discharged). Wasn't what the pacer was installed to handle (ventricular resynchronization), but the "while we're installing this, let's add a wire and program in some other someday-useful stuff" has indeed proven useful. Other body modification is a mechanical heart valve. I tick. I've been confused with clocks. Yes, MRIs are completely out of the question now. Work near a small one and get nervous walking by the door. OK, so these weren't exactly voluntary. Choice aside, being a cyborg does make for interesting experiences & conversations. ETA: BTW, not looking forward to replacing the battery. At least the device has been saying the battery will last another four years - for the last four years.

iamdann 15y ago
Really fascinating. Thanks for sharing!
ohgodthecat 15y ago
Thanks for that it was really a much better story than a magnetic implant which comes off as silly to me. If you ever write up more I sure would be interested.

gcb 15y ago

what happens if you actually operate one of those cloth retail super magnets de-taggers? does your hand get pulled away or inside it?

deleted 15y ago

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evincarofautumn 15y ago
The author reports that the sensations are different between a ring and an implant. I can’t speak to the differences firsthand, as I have no implant, but I gather that the perception of an external ring is more tool-like than sense-like.
- deleted 15y ago
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cmos 15y ago

I design toys that use magnets.. I end up carving my own tools out of wood so I can epoxy them in proper places. They are super annoying to make stay where you want them.. I would go crazy if I had one inside me.

waivej 15y ago
Hah! I can imagine epoxy covered magnets sticking to my little finger.

evoxed 15y ago

Looks like a pretty simple device. Now, when can we start seeing more improvements (particularly use/assembly related) on open source EEGs? I'm far more interested in monitoring my brain activity outside of my psychologist's office. Odd signal activity and all that...

jaa 15y ago

I've had two tiny disc magnet implants in two fingers for over three years now. I originally had it implanted as part of an idea for a novel man-machine interface I came up with for my Master's degree research project at the Uni of Reading (UK). The early reports of electrical fields inducing sensations had intrigued me, so I set out to explore the possibility of controlling the magnet with an external electromagnet, which in my final design was a simple coil ring worn around the finger, and use it as a sensory substitution man-machine interface. After measuring the frequency response, sensitivity etc characteristics, I finally put it into a practical application demo by using the interface to couple an ultrasonic ranger and a mobile phone to myself. The ultrasonic ranger was used to feed the distance information and I learnt pretty quickly to judge distances and move about with my eyes closed. In the phone scenario, I encoded characters as Morse Code pulses and could "read" the incoming text messages. My morse skills weren't that good but it worked! The internalization of the sensory information, with the magnet being inside the body, made a qualitative subjective difference as opposed to simply having a magnet glued to the finger. There's a bit of info on this and pictures/xrays on my blog: http://www.jawish.org/blog/plugin/tag/smii http://www.jawish.org/blog/plugin/tag/smii. The details on the interface is on the paper we published: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5898141 http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=5898... My best experience with real world magnetic fields? Wires. It was mind blowing to be able to feel the field around a wire which we usually think nothing of. The power cable to the electric heater generated a field I could "touch" about 4-5 inches away! What does touching it feel like? Like touching a stream of air. :)

AkThhhpppt 15y ago
I've read that paper, and I'd like to say thanks; being able to point at graphs that say I'm not imagining the sensation from my implant has occasionally been helpful. ",)

jjcm 15y ago

Contacted Steve Haworth today to arrange an appointment to get one implanted. Been wanting one for a few years now, this article tipped the scales.