18 ms·

We Can Do Better: An Apology from Sqoot

33 points by ElliotH 15y ago

iron_ball 15y ago
Second comment puts it perfectly: "Could you please explain how your "humor" was designed to call attention to the male-dominated world and was intended to be inclusive? How is inclusive to say that one of the perks were "women" and that one of your female event staff can fetch the boys some beer?" Claiming humorous irony is a very thin get-out clause in this kind of situation. You can't say "we were advertising our female beer-fetchers to ironically draw attention to the male-dominated programming field, thus showing solidarity with women." It just doesn't hold water. For your own sakes, guys, grit your teeth, bite down on a piece of leather or something, and write a real apology. This is so close! I know you can get the last 5% of the way!
- mbrzuzy 15y ago
  What is the big deal. People get way to offended this day in age. It's almost as if people are waiting for someone to say something offensive just so they can jump on it acting all high and mighty.
  - rmc 15y ago
    Or there is a legimate problem here?
    - timtamboy63 15y ago
      I personally don't think so. Everyone knows that Hackathons are widely male dominated. Yes, the comment was a little out of line in a professional content, but forgive them for trying to crack some humour and have some fun with their ad. Have we become so politically correct that we can't let this slide? @rmc: Do you honestly believe that Sqoot is sexist because of that one joke? That they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry? Really? EDIT: I reread it, and I think the major issue was listing 'women' as a perk, instead of something like 'beer'. Definitely out of line, but again, they should be allowed to make up for it.
      - ianterrell 15y ago
        I think the argument that it was a joke is hard to swallow. It doesn't even approach humor to me. A commenter on the apology got it right: > From the original press release it sounded like you were just trying to throw a party with "hot waitresses serving drinks" I'm not rmc and I won't answer for him, but I'll answer your queries from my own point of view. Do I believe that they're sexist because of that one statement? Yes, I do, absolutely, but: does that imply that I think that "they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry?" No, I don't believe their sexism is of that sort. I think that most sexism in the US today is significantly more subtle than an outright looking down on women. In this case, its subtlety makes it all the more pernicious: it's harder to spot (even in one's self), it's harder to call out, it's easier to excuse. Saying women are trash will make you into a pariah, and no one will patronize your business. But what does a much smaller objectification of women, like this case, do? It has a chilling effect and it normalizes similar behavior; it contributes to the culture of sexism. Are statements ("jokes") with such negative effects acceptable? It's hard to argue that they are, and so it seems to me that the argument in defense must be that the statement doesn't have those effects. And I think from the backlash, well written comments on the apology, etc--I think that's a steep hill to climb. As for them personally: I don't think it should be judged that they're bad people. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know. Are they sexist? I said they were, absolutely, because their behavior was, which they're culpable for. So they're sexist even if only partially and unconsciously. I'll give them that benefit of the doubt, so it's an offense, but it's a forgivable offense. There's a lot of sexism around. I've been guilty of sexist behavior in the past, and I'm sure I'll be guilty of it in the future. That's what happens when it's ingrained in culture and remains normal behavior. And that's what happens when statements like this are allowed to slide. We do things without knowing their full weight, meaning, and impact. And then we learn, and we adjust. And most importantly, through adjusting our behavior we introspect to the causes, and so learn more about ourselves and our world, and what makes it all tick, so that we can eliminate that which doesn't live up to our ideals.
        timtamboy63 15y ago
        You do make a really good point, and I definitely do agree with you. I just feel like people overreacted, almost like they jumped on the holier-than-thou bandwagon. When you consider events like CES and that one Yahoo Hack Day which employed strippers, this isn't nearly as offensive. Again, I definitely do see what you mean by it contributing to the culture of sexist, and that simply isn't acceptable. However, I feel like the sponsors, etc should have given Sqoot a chance to fix things before they resorted to the moves they did.
    - mindcrime 15y ago
      There's no reason it couldn't be both. There does appear to be a legitimate problem; but some people are also eager for any opportunity to scream "sexism" or "discrimination" and start jumping up and down looking for attention. One can be cognizant of the real issues and want to find solutions to them, without worshiping at the altar of Political Correctness.
  - ctide 15y ago
    Sexism (specifically in tech) is the new racism. If you go down that path of anything remotely sexist, expect to be torn to shreds just as quickly as if you made a racist remark. If people didn't get offended, then people like Sqoot will feel like it's totally OK to belittle women, even if they would never think to include racist jokes.
    - thoradam 15y ago
      Actually that's the funny part, this "joke" was in no way belittling women, it's idolizing them. It was made at the expense of the stereotypical male geek to whom women are otherwise inaccessible. Somehow it was appropriated as being about the female attendees.
      - knowtheory 15y ago
        Having/Wanting someone to serve you is not "idolizing". And as said elsewhere, just because you say shitty things about everyone doesn't mean that it's okay to say shitty things.
        thoradam 15y ago
        > Having/Wanting someone to serve you is not "idolizing". Is that the point of contention, that people feel that serving someone is demeaning? > And as said elsewhere, just because you say shitty things about everyone doesn't mean that it's okay to say shitty things. So you agree that the comment wasn't slighting women? Or are you just generally offended by all the possible interpretations?
      - Gayle 15y ago
        Yes... it's idolizing women... as sexual objects offered as a perk to male coders so that they can serve the men. As a female coder, I'd rather not be offered as a perk to male coders. So, yeah, this is belittling.
        thoradam 15y ago
- deleted 15y ago
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- strickjb9 15y ago
  Women - did you know that on golf courses the attendant who serves you beer is commonly referred to as a beer girl? Did you know that it describes the attendant perfectly because she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. What if, the attendants at the hackathon were in fact an all lady staff?
  - chrisrhoden 15y ago
    I don't think that the backlash would have been as strong if they had mentioned it in the way that you are suggesting. But they listed Women in a bulleted list of perks next to food. It is 100% objectification.
  - rmc 15y ago
    she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. I didn't think many golf courses could employ children. Unless you're trying to belittle adult women by calling them childish names. This has been done many times, e.g. the old habit of white men calling black adult men (before & after slavery) "boy".
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nullsub 15y ago
this sounds like limbaugh's apology the other day. "sorry that our WORDS made our sponsors mad. we should have used different WORDS." missed the point.
knowtheory 15y ago
> we used language that we now realize was reckless and hurt efforts to diversify gender in tech. Hurting gender diversity isn't the issue. That's a consequence of being a jerk. The problem with being a jerk, is being a jerk.
jsavimbi 15y ago
The only thing they're sorry for is the quick, efficient and brutal backlash they were rightfully subjected to. All the "we wanted, we decided, we aimed" self-centered nonsense only solidifies the belief that it's all about them and they're unable or unwilling to understand why people are upset when being known for having a loose atmosphere at their events was what they really wanted in the first place. And when I mean loose, I'm referring to the immature and douchebag activities best represented in the bro-party video genre. In retrospect, they should've doubled-down on stupid and pitched the event as being just that, instead of employing the guise of a hack-a-thon. Although it would've gone a lot smoother for them, it's obvious they would've failed there as well due to their incompetence, but at least they wouldn't be known as a couple of liars for some time to come. Oddly enough, this blog post must be hard to find, as their website makes no mention of their catastrophic implosion.
soup10 15y ago
I don't undertand why people are intent on burying these guys for a poorly written flier with one mildly misogynistic joke in bad taste. The whole sanctimonious/lynch mob mentality of this reminds me a lot of reddit. There is so little of substance to be angry about here that people are now more interested in criticizing the quality of their apology. I think they've learned their lesson.
- strawbucks 15y ago
  I would disagree: I think there is a point. The issue isn't necessarily the wording of the joke or semantics in the apology. It's this idea that the entire tech community is male and should be treated as such. It's not about this being politically correct or agreeable, it's about the attitude being insular. In my opinion, it would have been fine if they had said something similar, yet gender-neutral. Comments can be sexy without being sexist.
squadron 15y ago
There is another aspect of the apology that seems to be forgotten around here. Forgiveness. Yes, maybe they screwed up (I screw up more by 7am than most people do all day), but when someone apologizes the decent thing to do is accept it and move on with your life (and let them do the same).
- aaronroyer 15y ago
  I was wondering about this as well. I did think that the advertisement was sexist and made the hackathon seem exclusive to men. I don't know whether this incident was just an isolated bonehead move or it reveals incorrigible bad character in the people involved. I can see it either way depending on how I stare at it, but I don't believe I have enough data to make a firm conclusion. I don't have a pressing need to do so, so I will probably just leave the question unresolved in my mind. But for the people that have made firm conclusions, it seems like the apologies make no difference. I would ask people that are unsatisfied by Sqoot's apologies: Could they issue any apology that would satisfy you? We are supposedly talking about how to apologize and whether they can/should offer a better apology. But if nothing can change one's mind then we are really talking about whether the offense is forgivable or not, irrespective of the content of the apology.
  - tommorris 15y ago
    Yes, a decent apology needs to show some awareness of why exactly what they did was wrong. A decent apology needs to show a little bit of soul searching, and that they understand where people who were offended were coming from.
VonLipwig 15y ago
What exactly was sexist about what they did? """Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you.""" Perhaps the quote is missing context, I found it here: http://philomousos.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-to-apologize.html http://philomousos.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-to-apologize.h... To me it doesn't even make sense. What is this 'Women:' bit about? If you discount the 'Women colon' I think if anything it offends programmers. Are we really so geeky that we would go to an event just to get a beer from 'female' event staff? Perhaps they think their audience is locked in some underground lair 364 days of the year and women have become nothing but a mythical creature to a programmer. The promise of seeing this rare and mysterious creature serve beer would make someone like me want to go? I think not. There are 3 things that bug me about this. 1) The quote makes no sense and if you try to rationalise it attendees should be most offended. 2) People have got into such a kerfuffle which in scheme of things shows the inexperience of the hosts rather than their malace. 3) The event might not go ahead at all because of this... which seems like a bit of a shame. This looks like a storm in the tea cup brewed by people who don't get out enough.
- chrisrhoden 15y ago
  In context, the "Women:" part denoted the title of a perk in a bulleted list of perks, which absolutely makes this more offensive. The idea that you would put "Women" in the same list of perks as "Food", especially in a widely public way, is sort of mindblowing.
  - xiaoma 15y ago
    After food, shelter and possibly respect from one's tribe, women are probably next on the hierarchy of needs for most men. Interestingly, even women tend to prefer looking at beautiful female forms to beautiful male forms. This isn't the kind of language that should be used by an event trying to attract female participants, but on the other hand I don't think many men would object to being listed as a "perk" at an event for elementary school teachers, flight attendants or some other female-dominated field. There certainly wouldn't have been a lynch-mob reaction as there was in this case. The real world is asymmetric... and that holds for every human culture.
mangoman 15y ago
This kind of attitude SERIOUSLY hurts the industry as a whole. Two of the very best programmers I know are women, and blatantly sexist remarks are not the way to get good programmers to attend your event. In fact, why would you even want people who are drawn towards those kinds of perks ANYWAY? Whoever came for the perks of "women" are obviously not the kind of people that you want to associate with. This type of attitude (I remember reading an article about "brogrammers" on HN too) is not acceptable in the hacker community.
kristiandupont 15y ago
I'm obviously the minority here but I feel that this backlash is way over the top. Sure, the comment was sort of stupid and shouldn't be a part of any official communication from a company (although part of what I love about startups is that the communication is more human and doesn't feel like it's been screened by legal and marketing before published). To me, it pokes more fun at geeks than anyone else. "A real woman!" The idea that the underlying message is that women are supposed to be servants to men and that's all they are good for is imo quite a stretch. Does anybody really believe that they meant something like that?
- mr-ron 15y ago
  I think the underlying message is that only male geeks would ever go to a hackathon.
- xsmasher 15y ago
  Looking past the "women servants" message there's the implication that "developers are men, and we'll have women there to serve them beer." DO you think a female developer would feel welcomed by that message? The servants bit is a joke, the unspoken assumption that devs are men is the insidious poison.
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- knowtheory 15y ago
  Even if it did mock geeks, how does that excuse the dehumanization of women? Just because you're saying shitty things about everyone doesn't mean it's okay that you're saying shitty things.
  - kristiandupont 15y ago
    This is how I see it: claiming that A can "dehumanize" B implies that A is over B somehow. I find your statement and the like elsewhere in this discussion ("Women are not a perk!" etc.) more demeaning and patronizing that the original line. Women are not weak souls who need protection from evil sexist geeks.
hkarthik 15y ago
If they really mean what they say, they should work with the women in the NYC startup scene (GirlDevelopIT and others) to launch a new more inclusive event.
whalesalad 15y ago
People need to fucking lighten up. I would not have said what they said on the site, but it really was a stupid joke. Everyone jumps to conclusions that we're all a bunch of misogynistic assholes. The problem is, you can't understand someone over the internet. You can't understand someone's apology or who they are or any of that. Worse, the majority of these people calling this issue out online would NEVER confront squoot in real life and raise these points. I make rude/crude/evil jokes to people all the time. Especially women friends of mine. But it's all in the spirit of being cocky/funny, and they love it. Do I believe men and women were created equally? Yes. Do I believe a woman should be able to do whatever the fuck she wants in this world, be it fighting fires or curing AIDS? Yes. Do I feel bad that my sister is hurt by dickwad ex boyfriends out there who lower her self esteem. Yes. Do I have 3 little sisters and hope they all grow up to be strong and independent individuals? Yes. But there ARE certain gender roles in this world, influenced not just by our society but by many, many things. Testosterone? Yeah, I have a lot more than most women. Why? I have a penis. We're different. We joke differently, we think differently. We need to appreciate each other for who we are. Part of that is realizing each others faults as well. If a bunch of girls started a hackathon and listed one of the items as "$1 to the community bucket for whoever doesn't put the seat down", I think I'd laugh at that (maybe a bad example). For the most part men and women are aware of their stereotypical flaws. Search for "Shit girls say" on youtube and admire the view count. I don't know a single girl who didn't completely piss her pants watching that. Sure, there are things that people should not say/do regarding women. For example, I'd beat the shit out of ANY guy I ever met who ever made even the slightest joke about rape. But then there are other things, like the stuff Sqoot said on their event page. Psh, just a harmless JOKE. Pick your battles people. Ugh. I'm ranting. This whole thing is just stupid though. Everyone needs to relax.
- donohoe 15y ago
  I'm sure on many counts you are absolutely right. However there is a HUGE difference between what I say in person and what I put in a a public invitation. In isolation its "just a harmless JOKE" but it is not in isolation in the tech scene. There is a long list of this behavior that makes this industry uninviting (and in some rarer cases just damn hostile) to women. I think in Startup culture we appreciate that its all in the nuance and little details when it comes to success. Small things like this add up. I'd argue that it is in dealing with matter incidents like this that we make a larger change in the long run. As for "Everyone needs to relax"... I have two daughters. When I don't have to read about people like Sqoot then I'll relax.
rmc 15y ago
To all the straight men here who can't see what the original problem with including "Women who bring you beer" as perk, let me give you a little thought experiment. Imagine instead all the gendered terms were swapped in the original post, and it read something like this: Perks: * Men. Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (male) event staff get that for you. You hardly ever see that, and if you're used to the programmer culture, when you read that you might mentally stumble and feel weird. Would you like to go to an event like that? If you went, how do you think people would treat you. This is what the subtle sexism feels like.
douglee650 15y ago
these guys put a godhead on their website apologizing for this ... if you are reading, sqoot, i would advise you actually hire a PR firm experienced in these matters. they'll probably tell you to just go silent for awhile. that would be "good advice"
bobbydavid 15y ago
There are a couple forces at work here. First, the tech/hacker world tends to be male-dominated, which creates a male-oriented culture, which reciprocally draws more men, and the cycle continues. We want to break that cycle, and a good way to do that is to snap at the heels of people (like Sqoot) who are slow to get with the program. Overall, this sort of admonishment improves the community. I'm glad it's happening. Second, anyone who has first-hand seen or experienced being subjected to this type of offensive comments will almost certainly have an emotional interest in the matter. It feels pretty good to watch someone burn at the stake, especially when day in and day out you watch others get away with making similar comments. Just scroll through the comments on Sqoot's apology and you'll find some pretty visceral remarks. The problem is, it may feel good but it doesn't help. Here's why: As blatantly offensive as the original comment was, it wasn't written with the intent of bashing women -- it was just plain insensitive. Grossly insensitive and very hurtful? Yes. But there's an important difference between being insensitive and being malicious. Why does it matter? Because if you truly have the goal of improving the community, insensitive/ignorant behavior needs to be met with education. Otherwise, all we get is an "Us vs. Them" mentality, which leads me to the third force at work here: defensiveness. Sqoot's initial apology, along with many of the comments on this new one, reek of defensiveness. It's easy to see why: those people are most likely just as oblivious as Sqoot, and they see themselves in Sqoot's behavior. Don't alienate those people and don't put them on the defensive by being overly harsh on Sqoot. That pushes people away from the conversation -- the very people who most need to be educated. There needs to be a clear distinction between Sqoot's words (not tolerated) and Sqoot's mistake (mistakes must be tolerated).
jshowa 15y ago
People do realize that this is an apology right? You do realize that they did this twice right? Why in the world can't be just accept it and move on. It literally boggles the mind that people ARE STILL OFFENDED after an apology. Get over it! Geez...
- donohoe 15y ago
  An apology is nice. They wrote a good one too. However you do not have to accept an apology.
  - Gayle 15y ago
    They wrote two apologies. Their first one was pretty terrible and did not show that they had actually processed why what they did was so offensive. Their second apology was a bit better. But they claimed that their comment was "aimed to call attention to the male-dominated tech world through humor and intended to be inclusive." Do they honestly expect us to believe that their comment was designed to be inclusive, so that's why they offered women serving male coders as a perk? (And this isn't just me reading into it. That's very literally what they said.) I would have much more respect if they just came out and said that, in an attempt humor, they had made immature and sexist remarks and that they understand that their comment was harmful not only to women, but to non-straight men, and to hacker culture as a whole. They're embarrassed, and rightfully so, but trying to BS around what they were doing doesn't help. Admit your faults directly and people will be much more forgiving.
    - donohoe 15y ago
      Agreed! You've put it much better than I could.
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xibernetik 15y ago
For those who don`t think this is offensive: Replace Women/Female with an ethnic minority (e.g. Japanese, Hispanic) of your choice, and then think about how someone of that background would feel reading that message. Then try it with other minorities - lesbian or deaf people, for example. Yes, it's blown up. Proportionally? I don't know. A lot of the people who are saying "get over it guys, this really isn't that bad" are the people who've never had to face continual prejudice regarding their coding abilities or competence because of their genetics. It's difficult to understand the perspective of a woman in tech unless you're experienced that. When you've been receiving subtle indicators that "you're not really part of this club", this sort of message can sting quite a bit.

33 points by ElliotH 15y ago

Second comment puts it perfectly: "Could you please explain how your "humor" was designed to call attention to the male-dominated world and was intended to be inclusive? How is inclusive to say that one of the perks were "women" and that one of your female event staff can fetch the boys some beer?" Claiming humorous irony is a very thin get-out clause in this kind of situation. You can't say "we were advertising our female beer-fetchers to ironically draw attention to the male-dominated programming field, thus showing solidarity with women." It just doesn't hold water. For your own sakes, guys, grit your teeth, bite down on a piece of leather or something, and write a real apology. This is so close! I know you can get the last 5% of the way!

mbrzuzy 15y ago
What is the big deal. People get way to offended this day in age. It's almost as if people are waiting for someone to say something offensive just so they can jump on it acting all high and mighty.
- rmc 15y ago
  Or there is a legimate problem here?
  - timtamboy63 15y ago
    I personally don't think so. Everyone knows that Hackathons are widely male dominated. Yes, the comment was a little out of line in a professional content, but forgive them for trying to crack some humour and have some fun with their ad. Have we become so politically correct that we can't let this slide? @rmc: Do you honestly believe that Sqoot is sexist because of that one joke? That they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry? Really? EDIT: I reread it, and I think the major issue was listing 'women' as a perk, instead of something like 'beer'. Definitely out of line, but again, they should be allowed to make up for it.
    - ianterrell 15y ago
      I think the argument that it was a joke is hard to swallow. It doesn't even approach humor to me. A commenter on the apology got it right: > From the original press release it sounded like you were just trying to throw a party with "hot waitresses serving drinks" I'm not rmc and I won't answer for him, but I'll answer your queries from my own point of view. Do I believe that they're sexist because of that one statement? Yes, I do, absolutely, but: does that imply that I think that "they look down on women, and think they shouldn't be working in the industry?" No, I don't believe their sexism is of that sort. I think that most sexism in the US today is significantly more subtle than an outright looking down on women. In this case, its subtlety makes it all the more pernicious: it's harder to spot (even in one's self), it's harder to call out, it's easier to excuse. Saying women are trash will make you into a pariah, and no one will patronize your business. But what does a much smaller objectification of women, like this case, do? It has a chilling effect and it normalizes similar behavior; it contributes to the culture of sexism. Are statements ("jokes") with such negative effects acceptable? It's hard to argue that they are, and so it seems to me that the argument in defense must be that the statement doesn't have those effects. And I think from the backlash, well written comments on the apology, etc--I think that's a steep hill to climb. As for them personally: I don't think it should be judged that they're bad people. Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I don't know. Are they sexist? I said they were, absolutely, because their behavior was, which they're culpable for. So they're sexist even if only partially and unconsciously. I'll give them that benefit of the doubt, so it's an offense, but it's a forgivable offense. There's a lot of sexism around. I've been guilty of sexist behavior in the past, and I'm sure I'll be guilty of it in the future. That's what happens when it's ingrained in culture and remains normal behavior. And that's what happens when statements like this are allowed to slide. We do things without knowing their full weight, meaning, and impact. And then we learn, and we adjust. And most importantly, through adjusting our behavior we introspect to the causes, and so learn more about ourselves and our world, and what makes it all tick, so that we can eliminate that which doesn't live up to our ideals.
      - timtamboy63 15y ago
        You do make a really good point, and I definitely do agree with you. I just feel like people overreacted, almost like they jumped on the holier-than-thou bandwagon. When you consider events like CES and that one Yahoo Hack Day which employed strippers, this isn't nearly as offensive. Again, I definitely do see what you mean by it contributing to the culture of sexist, and that simply isn't acceptable. However, I feel like the sponsors, etc should have given Sqoot a chance to fix things before they resorted to the moves they did.
  - mindcrime 15y ago
    There's no reason it couldn't be both. There does appear to be a legitimate problem; but some people are also eager for any opportunity to scream "sexism" or "discrimination" and start jumping up and down looking for attention. One can be cognizant of the real issues and want to find solutions to them, without worshiping at the altar of Political Correctness.
- ctide 15y ago
  Sexism (specifically in tech) is the new racism. If you go down that path of anything remotely sexist, expect to be torn to shreds just as quickly as if you made a racist remark. If people didn't get offended, then people like Sqoot will feel like it's totally OK to belittle women, even if they would never think to include racist jokes.
  - thoradam 15y ago
    Actually that's the funny part, this "joke" was in no way belittling women, it's idolizing them. It was made at the expense of the stereotypical male geek to whom women are otherwise inaccessible. Somehow it was appropriated as being about the female attendees.
    - knowtheory 15y ago
      Having/Wanting someone to serve you is not "idolizing". And as said elsewhere, just because you say shitty things about everyone doesn't mean that it's okay to say shitty things.
      - thoradam 15y ago
        > Having/Wanting someone to serve you is not "idolizing". Is that the point of contention, that people feel that serving someone is demeaning? > And as said elsewhere, just because you say shitty things about everyone doesn't mean that it's okay to say shitty things. So you agree that the comment wasn't slighting women? Or are you just generally offended by all the possible interpretations?
    - Gayle 15y ago
      Yes... it's idolizing women... as sexual objects offered as a perk to male coders so that they can serve the men. As a female coder, I'd rather not be offered as a perk to male coders. So, yeah, this is belittling.
      - thoradam 15y ago
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strickjb9 15y ago
Women - did you know that on golf courses the attendant who serves you beer is commonly referred to as a beer girl? Did you know that it describes the attendant perfectly because she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. What if, the attendants at the hackathon were in fact an all lady staff?
- chrisrhoden 15y ago
  I don't think that the backlash would have been as strong if they had mentioned it in the way that you are suggesting. But they listed Women in a bulleted list of perks next to food. It is 100% objectification.
- rmc 15y ago
  she is in fact a girl who is serving beer. I didn't think many golf courses could employ children. Unless you're trying to belittle adult women by calling them childish names. This has been done many times, e.g. the old habit of white men calling black adult men (before & after slavery) "boy".
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nullsub 15y ago

this sounds like limbaugh's apology the other day. "sorry that our WORDS made our sponsors mad. we should have used different WORDS." missed the point.

knowtheory 15y ago

> we used language that we now realize was reckless and hurt efforts to diversify gender in tech. Hurting gender diversity isn't the issue. That's a consequence of being a jerk. The problem with being a jerk, is being a jerk.

jsavimbi 15y ago

The only thing they're sorry for is the quick, efficient and brutal backlash they were rightfully subjected to. All the "we wanted, we decided, we aimed" self-centered nonsense only solidifies the belief that it's all about them and they're unable or unwilling to understand why people are upset when being known for having a loose atmosphere at their events was what they really wanted in the first place. And when I mean loose, I'm referring to the immature and douchebag activities best represented in the bro-party video genre. In retrospect, they should've doubled-down on stupid and pitched the event as being just that, instead of employing the guise of a hack-a-thon. Although it would've gone a lot smoother for them, it's obvious they would've failed there as well due to their incompetence, but at least they wouldn't be known as a couple of liars for some time to come. Oddly enough, this blog post must be hard to find, as their website makes no mention of their catastrophic implosion.

soup10 15y ago

I don't undertand why people are intent on burying these guys for a poorly written flier with one mildly misogynistic joke in bad taste. The whole sanctimonious/lynch mob mentality of this reminds me a lot of reddit. There is so little of substance to be angry about here that people are now more interested in criticizing the quality of their apology. I think they've learned their lesson.

strawbucks 15y ago
I would disagree: I think there is a point. The issue isn't necessarily the wording of the joke or semantics in the apology. It's this idea that the entire tech community is male and should be treated as such. It's not about this being politically correct or agreeable, it's about the attitude being insular. In my opinion, it would have been fine if they had said something similar, yet gender-neutral. Comments can be sexy without being sexist.

squadron 15y ago

There is another aspect of the apology that seems to be forgotten around here. Forgiveness. Yes, maybe they screwed up (I screw up more by 7am than most people do all day), but when someone apologizes the decent thing to do is accept it and move on with your life (and let them do the same).

aaronroyer 15y ago
I was wondering about this as well. I did think that the advertisement was sexist and made the hackathon seem exclusive to men. I don't know whether this incident was just an isolated bonehead move or it reveals incorrigible bad character in the people involved. I can see it either way depending on how I stare at it, but I don't believe I have enough data to make a firm conclusion. I don't have a pressing need to do so, so I will probably just leave the question unresolved in my mind. But for the people that have made firm conclusions, it seems like the apologies make no difference. I would ask people that are unsatisfied by Sqoot's apologies: Could they issue any apology that would satisfy you? We are supposedly talking about how to apologize and whether they can/should offer a better apology. But if nothing can change one's mind then we are really talking about whether the offense is forgivable or not, irrespective of the content of the apology.
- tommorris 15y ago
  Yes, a decent apology needs to show some awareness of why exactly what they did was wrong. A decent apology needs to show a little bit of soul searching, and that they understand where people who were offended were coming from.

VonLipwig 15y ago

What exactly was sexist about what they did? """Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you.""" Perhaps the quote is missing context, I found it here: http://philomousos.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-to-apologize.html http://philomousos.blogspot.co.uk/2012/03/how-to-apologize.h... To me it doesn't even make sense. What is this 'Women:' bit about? If you discount the 'Women colon' I think if anything it offends programmers. Are we really so geeky that we would go to an event just to get a beer from 'female' event staff? Perhaps they think their audience is locked in some underground lair 364 days of the year and women have become nothing but a mythical creature to a programmer. The promise of seeing this rare and mysterious creature serve beer would make someone like me want to go? I think not. There are 3 things that bug me about this. 1) The quote makes no sense and if you try to rationalise it attendees should be most offended. 2) People have got into such a kerfuffle which in scheme of things shows the inexperience of the hosts rather than their malace. 3) The event might not go ahead at all because of this... which seems like a bit of a shame. This looks like a storm in the tea cup brewed by people who don't get out enough.

chrisrhoden 15y ago
In context, the "Women:" part denoted the title of a perk in a bulleted list of perks, which absolutely makes this more offensive. The idea that you would put "Women" in the same list of perks as "Food", especially in a widely public way, is sort of mindblowing.
- xiaoma 15y ago
  After food, shelter and possibly respect from one's tribe, women are probably next on the hierarchy of needs for most men. Interestingly, even women tend to prefer looking at beautiful female forms to beautiful male forms. This isn't the kind of language that should be used by an event trying to attract female participants, but on the other hand I don't think many men would object to being listed as a "perk" at an event for elementary school teachers, flight attendants or some other female-dominated field. There certainly wouldn't have been a lynch-mob reaction as there was in this case. The real world is asymmetric... and that holds for every human culture.

mangoman 15y ago

This kind of attitude SERIOUSLY hurts the industry as a whole. Two of the very best programmers I know are women, and blatantly sexist remarks are not the way to get good programmers to attend your event. In fact, why would you even want people who are drawn towards those kinds of perks ANYWAY? Whoever came for the perks of "women" are obviously not the kind of people that you want to associate with. This type of attitude (I remember reading an article about "brogrammers" on HN too) is not acceptable in the hacker community.

kristiandupont 15y ago

I'm obviously the minority here but I feel that this backlash is way over the top. Sure, the comment was sort of stupid and shouldn't be a part of any official communication from a company (although part of what I love about startups is that the communication is more human and doesn't feel like it's been screened by legal and marketing before published). To me, it pokes more fun at geeks than anyone else. "A real woman!" The idea that the underlying message is that women are supposed to be servants to men and that's all they are good for is imo quite a stretch. Does anybody really believe that they meant something like that?

mr-ron 15y ago
I think the underlying message is that only male geeks would ever go to a hackathon.
xsmasher 15y ago
Looking past the "women servants" message there's the implication that "developers are men, and we'll have women there to serve them beer." DO you think a female developer would feel welcomed by that message? The servants bit is a joke, the unspoken assumption that devs are men is the insidious poison.
- deleted 15y ago
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knowtheory 15y ago
Even if it did mock geeks, how does that excuse the dehumanization of women? Just because you're saying shitty things about everyone doesn't mean it's okay that you're saying shitty things.
- kristiandupont 15y ago
  This is how I see it: claiming that A can "dehumanize" B implies that A is over B somehow. I find your statement and the like elsewhere in this discussion ("Women are not a perk!" etc.) more demeaning and patronizing that the original line. Women are not weak souls who need protection from evil sexist geeks.

hkarthik 15y ago

If they really mean what they say, they should work with the women in the NYC startup scene (GirlDevelopIT and others) to launch a new more inclusive event.

whalesalad 15y ago

People need to fucking lighten up. I would not have said what they said on the site, but it really was a stupid joke. Everyone jumps to conclusions that we're all a bunch of misogynistic assholes. The problem is, you can't understand someone over the internet. You can't understand someone's apology or who they are or any of that. Worse, the majority of these people calling this issue out online would NEVER confront squoot in real life and raise these points. I make rude/crude/evil jokes to people all the time. Especially women friends of mine. But it's all in the spirit of being cocky/funny, and they love it. Do I believe men and women were created equally? Yes. Do I believe a woman should be able to do whatever the fuck she wants in this world, be it fighting fires or curing AIDS? Yes. Do I feel bad that my sister is hurt by dickwad ex boyfriends out there who lower her self esteem. Yes. Do I have 3 little sisters and hope they all grow up to be strong and independent individuals? Yes. But there ARE certain gender roles in this world, influenced not just by our society but by many, many things. Testosterone? Yeah, I have a lot more than most women. Why? I have a penis. We're different. We joke differently, we think differently. We need to appreciate each other for who we are. Part of that is realizing each others faults as well. If a bunch of girls started a hackathon and listed one of the items as "$1 to the community bucket for whoever doesn't put the seat down", I think I'd laugh at that (maybe a bad example). For the most part men and women are aware of their stereotypical flaws. Search for "Shit girls say" on youtube and admire the view count. I don't know a single girl who didn't completely piss her pants watching that. Sure, there are things that people should not say/do regarding women. For example, I'd beat the shit out of ANY guy I ever met who ever made even the slightest joke about rape. But then there are other things, like the stuff Sqoot said on their event page. Psh, just a harmless JOKE. Pick your battles people. Ugh. I'm ranting. This whole thing is just stupid though. Everyone needs to relax.

donohoe 15y ago
I'm sure on many counts you are absolutely right. However there is a HUGE difference between what I say in person and what I put in a a public invitation. In isolation its "just a harmless JOKE" but it is not in isolation in the tech scene. There is a long list of this behavior that makes this industry uninviting (and in some rarer cases just damn hostile) to women. I think in Startup culture we appreciate that its all in the nuance and little details when it comes to success. Small things like this add up. I'd argue that it is in dealing with matter incidents like this that we make a larger change in the long run. As for "Everyone needs to relax"... I have two daughters. When I don't have to read about people like Sqoot then I'll relax.

rmc 15y ago

To all the straight men here who can't see what the original problem with including "Women who bring you beer" as perk, let me give you a little thought experiment. Imagine instead all the gendered terms were swapped in the original post, and it read something like this: Perks: * Men. Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (male) event staff get that for you. You hardly ever see that, and if you're used to the programmer culture, when you read that you might mentally stumble and feel weird. Would you like to go to an event like that? If you went, how do you think people would treat you. This is what the subtle sexism feels like.

douglee650 15y ago

these guys put a godhead on their website apologizing for this ... if you are reading, sqoot, i would advise you actually hire a PR firm experienced in these matters. they'll probably tell you to just go silent for awhile. that would be "good advice"

bobbydavid 15y ago

There are a couple forces at work here. First, the tech/hacker world tends to be male-dominated, which creates a male-oriented culture, which reciprocally draws more men, and the cycle continues. We want to break that cycle, and a good way to do that is to snap at the heels of people (like Sqoot) who are slow to get with the program. Overall, this sort of admonishment improves the community. I'm glad it's happening. Second, anyone who has first-hand seen or experienced being subjected to this type of offensive comments will almost certainly have an emotional interest in the matter. It feels pretty good to watch someone burn at the stake, especially when day in and day out you watch others get away with making similar comments. Just scroll through the comments on Sqoot's apology and you'll find some pretty visceral remarks. The problem is, it may feel good but it doesn't help. Here's why: As blatantly offensive as the original comment was, it wasn't written with the intent of bashing women -- it was just plain insensitive. Grossly insensitive and very hurtful? Yes. But there's an important difference between being insensitive and being malicious. Why does it matter? Because if you truly have the goal of improving the community, insensitive/ignorant behavior needs to be met with education. Otherwise, all we get is an "Us vs. Them" mentality, which leads me to the third force at work here: defensiveness. Sqoot's initial apology, along with many of the comments on this new one, reek of defensiveness. It's easy to see why: those people are most likely just as oblivious as Sqoot, and they see themselves in Sqoot's behavior. Don't alienate those people and don't put them on the defensive by being overly harsh on Sqoot. That pushes people away from the conversation -- the very people who most need to be educated. There needs to be a clear distinction between Sqoot's words (not tolerated) and Sqoot's mistake (mistakes must be tolerated).

jshowa 15y ago

People do realize that this is an apology right? You do realize that they did this twice right? Why in the world can't be just accept it and move on. It literally boggles the mind that people ARE STILL OFFENDED after an apology. Get over it! Geez...

donohoe 15y ago
An apology is nice. They wrote a good one too. However you do not have to accept an apology.
- Gayle 15y ago
  They wrote two apologies. Their first one was pretty terrible and did not show that they had actually processed why what they did was so offensive. Their second apology was a bit better. But they claimed that their comment was "aimed to call attention to the male-dominated tech world through humor and intended to be inclusive." Do they honestly expect us to believe that their comment was designed to be inclusive, so that's why they offered women serving male coders as a perk? (And this isn't just me reading into it. That's very literally what they said.) I would have much more respect if they just came out and said that, in an attempt humor, they had made immature and sexist remarks and that they understand that their comment was harmful not only to women, but to non-straight men, and to hacker culture as a whole. They're embarrassed, and rightfully so, but trying to BS around what they were doing doesn't help. Admit your faults directly and people will be much more forgiving.
  - donohoe 15y ago
    Agreed! You've put it much better than I could.

deleted 15y ago

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xibernetik 15y ago

For those who don`t think this is offensive: Replace Women/Female with an ethnic minority (e.g. Japanese, Hispanic) of your choice, and then think about how someone of that background would feel reading that message. Then try it with other minorities - lesbian or deaf people, for example. Yes, it's blown up. Proportionally? I don't know. A lot of the people who are saying "get over it guys, this really isn't that bad" are the people who've never had to face continual prejudice regarding their coding abilities or competence because of their genetics. It's difficult to understand the perspective of a woman in tech unless you're experienced that. When you've been receiving subtle indicators that "you're not really part of this club", this sort of message can sting quite a bit.