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Your assertion that this sort of linguistic hedge is a lie is itself based on a few false assumptions: 1. That there is one correct way to do something 2. Tha
by grey-area 3y ago
Your assertion that this sort of linguistic hedge is a lie is itself based on a few false assumptions:
1. That there is one correct way to do something
2. That you know that way, and they don't
3. That they didn't consider and disregard that way in early planning due to something you're unaware of
What you see as lying is intended to avoid an arrogant disregard for their time and thought, and also to avoid having ego dictate the conversation rather than ideas.
- whatshisface 3y ago"I think..." is a hedge, "I really liked," (when you didn't) is a lie.
- johnnyanmac 3y agoBut what if you did? No one is saying to lie. If you genuinely cannot find any good out of the code review (considerations for performance, easy to read, functional solution, time to execute, ability to reach out to proper peers), then maybe they shouldn't have been hired to begin with? Even a well picked intern these days should have one of those qualities.
- staunton 3y agoSo, that would be "I think you did it wrong; of course, I can't claim to know that objectively; anyway, I really liked the way you did it"...
- johnnyanmac 3y agoYou sound wishy washy and you need to review your requirements, and/or rope in someone who does knows how to do it right in that case. There is nothing wrong with "this doesn't feel right but I don't have the capacity to tell". If you aren't qualified for that sort of code review, find the proper peer who can.
- staunton 3y agoMy comment was parody. Surely, nobody actually says things like that?
- johnnyanmac 3y agounfortunately I have seen that sort of language. Usually more as mumblings of a manager that has given up on trying to maintain a quality codebase, but I suppose Poe's Law strikes yet again.
- nemetroid 3y agoIt's right there in the description of the situation. You didn't like it: "If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, ...".
- johnnyanmac 3y agoThere's a spectrum of "like" and "didn't like", you know. Have you ever truly come across a situation with a co-worker where there was no redeedming quality in their code review?
- nemetroid 3y ago> Have you ever truly come across a situation with a co-worker where there was no redeedming quality in their code review? This is irrelevant. Calling out specific parts as good is a great idea, if nothing else as clarification of what in particular it was that you didn't like. This is not what people are arguing against. In the example under discussion, the judgement of the work as a whole was "bad", while the communication on the work as a whole was "I really liked your approach". This is not pointing out redeeming qualities, it's just dishonesty.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago>This is irrelevant. no, it's the entire point. Don't focus all on the bad, we're biased towards that and it's something we should always keep in mind. >In the example under discussion, the judgement of the work as a whole was "bad", exhibit A. Where in that top post was the objective judgement "bad"? As a reminder: > If you are calling out your colleagues for doing bad work, or not the way you would do it work, you should try to rephrase into praise w/ direction. “I really liked how you tackled this, have you thought about this approach?” Instead of “Why didn’t you do it this way?” We're assuming the "caller" in this case is right. When there may not be a metric of "correct approach". This is especially highlighted with "not the way you would do it". Okay, who says your way is the best way? If you cant self-introspect and understand different approaches, as well as shortcomings in your own, then yes. I would say you are that hostile worker no one wants to work with.
- Madmallard 3y agonah people know when they’re sucking and you just look patronizing talking like that ever play any competitive games? theres nothing you can say directly to a person when they screw up. you have to just have to ignore and focus on the gameplay. saying anything to them raises the likelihood of a negative outcome.
- jfim 3y agoCoworkers have different incentives than players in a game of Dota. In a competitive game, they'll skulk or grief until the game is over, then queue for another and likely will be matched with other people. That behavior doesn't really work in an office, since people are working with the same colleagues every day.
- Madmallard 3y agois it incentives or are these just the underlying feelings that happen in most people and there isn’t as much of a reason to suppress in an online environment? Sort of like the road rage problem
- anon84873628 3y agoThat's just not true. What do you think happens when the catcher goes to talk to the pitcher? It's not just strategy. "Good eye" "good hustle" "you got this" "we got em on the next one"-- good teammates find lots of ways to support their teammates and keep morale up.
- makeitdouble 3y agoI think the point behind this discussion is that people will take external input in very different ways, and if you spent some time with your colleage/teammate hopefully you found a way that works for them. There will definitely be catchers that tell you to fuck off if you come to them and they already know what you're trying to say. Praise sandwitches for some, straight requests for other, no direct communication in some cases etc. it needs to be tailored and not a recipe.
- 3y ago
- mananaysiempre 3y agoA few potentially false assumptions. The (very real) possibility of being wrong exists, but declaring that because of it nobody ever—or you specifically—can be right seems overkill and contradictory to the ethos of the engineering profession and the approach it uses for its chosen range of problems. (I have the vague impression that people who talk along these lines usually think that being wrong is somehow a bad thing, or at least that even if they personally don’t others do and those others need to be accomodated. Of course, while being wrong might not be pleasant, it’s absolutely necessary, and the harder the problem is the more times you’ll need to be wrong before you solve it. Thus shaming people for being wrong, especially in an educational setting, is one of the very small number of things that make me genuinely furious. Not telling people they’re wrong when [you think] they are because you think they might feel shame because of it is... not as bad, but still feels seriously counterproductive. I can’t say I have a grip on how to train or at least help others out of that shame, though. Is your motivation different here? Because, I don’t know, you seem to say that telling others they’re wrong [about an engineering problem] always [or often] constitutes arrogance, and that is such an extrodinarily extreme position from where I’m standing that I can’t convincingly model it.)
- grey-area 3y agoDrop your insistence on a dichotomy of right and wrong and the advice may make more sense. Most of the time there are lots of ways to do things and there are lots of trade-offs, some humility when addressing others is a useful skill and you will very rarely know for sure that you are right and the other person is entirely wrong.