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>still basically bound to an irrational emotional response to Chernobyl. It's hardly irrational. Nuclear power is effectively still uninsurable by private insu

by pydry 3y ago

>still basically bound to an irrational emotional response to Chernobyl. It's hardly irrational. Nuclear power is effectively still uninsurable by private insurers and the taxpayer clean up bill for Fukushima is around $800 billion. It wouldn't be irrational to build more power stations if they were cheap but nuclear power is even less economic than using wind and solar power to synthesize gas for storage and burning that to generate electricity: https://theecologist.org/2016/feb/17/wind-power-windgas-cheaper-and-greener-hinkley-point-c-nuclear-plant https://theecologist.org/2016/feb/17/wind-power-windgas-chea...

qsort 3y ago
> $800 billion Even taking that figure completely at face value, that's... not a lot of money? Italy's GDP is 2.1T, if a Fukushima-like disaster happens once in 30 years (which it doesn't, but for the sake of argument let's say it does), that's an amortized cost of 1% of the GDP. We're Italians, we'd waste that kind of money on some stupid shit anyway.
- Incipient 3y ago
  You mean you waste it on corruption (and the Mafia)? My family is Italian, and I do love the country, and it could be a true financial powerhouse...but the corruption will literally kill the country one day, I have very little doubt Italy as the current entity will fail (honestly I am surprised that covid didn't bankrupt the country, so that was a positive).
  - frafra 3y ago
    Italy has been slowly going down for the last 30 years. Too many small businesses that are not competitive, providing lower salaries; populism rose. The State of Italy is spending ~30 billions each year for improving the insulation of old buildings, without lowering emissions significantly or having a real effect on the economy. With all the money that have already been spent just on this measure, Italy could have built so many nuclear reactors that it would have ensured zero carbon emission electricity for many years. That is just an example.
- hathchip 3y ago
  "5 months GDP is a reasonable cost" is not the argument in favor of nuclear power that you think it is.
frafra 3y ago
The cost of energy does not only depend on the cost of production: Denmark has a lot of cheap wind energy, but it costs almost three times more than in France. And the higher share of intermittent sources you have, the less valuable the production of energy can be, because it is sometimes produced when not needed, so you need to build up infrastructure, accumulators, etc. Nuclear is insurable, and in some countries is mandatory: https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and-security/safety-of-plants/liability-for-nuclear-damage.aspx https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- ZeroGravitas 3y ago
  The difference in electricity costs between France and Denmark (and pretty much any other such simplistic comparison you see) is often highly influenced by taxation policy. You can tax energy use to encourage conservation or you can subsidize it via general taxes. https://energy.ec.europa.eu/data-and-analysis/energy-prices-and-costs-europe/dashboard-energy-prices-eu-and-main-trading-partners_en https://energy.ec.europa.eu/data-and-analysis/energy-prices-... The wholesale electricity prices in Denmark and France are both directly in line with the EU average. Switch to consumer prices and Denmark becomes the maximum, and France drops below the average. You can see a similar pattern with gas (both natural gas and gasoline) prices, they're roughly the same wholesale but Denmark's consumer prices are higher.
  - frafra 3y ago
    Is it Denmark really putting taxes on electricity so high that a kWh costs 2 times more than in France? Just to reduce consumption? The interesting data you linked clearly shows the problem with high mix of renewables: even if the average wholesale price is the similar, the final cost can be way higher because people need electricity at 6 PM and not so much at 4 AM, and the costs of a more unstable system are higher (such as delivery costs). Similar production price, totally different value. That is the difference between LCOE and the costs estimates which include other factors, such as the firming intermittency price estimations published in Lazard 2023. The similar patter you see in oil and gas could be because of taxes, but the difference is below 10 %, not 200 %.

by pydry 3y ago

qsort 3y ago

> $800 billion Even taking that figure completely at face value, that's... not a lot of money? Italy's GDP is 2.1T, if a Fukushima-like disaster happens once in 30 years (which it doesn't, but for the sake of argument let's say it does), that's an amortized cost of 1% of the GDP. We're Italians, we'd waste that kind of money on some stupid shit anyway.

Incipient 3y ago
You mean you waste it on corruption (and the Mafia)? My family is Italian, and I do love the country, and it could be a true financial powerhouse...but the corruption will literally kill the country one day, I have very little doubt Italy as the current entity will fail (honestly I am surprised that covid didn't bankrupt the country, so that was a positive).
- frafra 3y ago
  Italy has been slowly going down for the last 30 years. Too many small businesses that are not competitive, providing lower salaries; populism rose. The State of Italy is spending ~30 billions each year for improving the insulation of old buildings, without lowering emissions significantly or having a real effect on the economy. With all the money that have already been spent just on this measure, Italy could have built so many nuclear reactors that it would have ensured zero carbon emission electricity for many years. That is just an example.
hathchip 3y ago
"5 months GDP is a reasonable cost" is not the argument in favor of nuclear power that you think it is.

frafra 3y ago

The cost of energy does not only depend on the cost of production: Denmark has a lot of cheap wind energy, but it costs almost three times more than in France. And the higher share of intermittent sources you have, the less valuable the production of energy can be, because it is sometimes produced when not needed, so you need to build up infrastructure, accumulators, etc. Nuclear is insurable, and in some countries is mandatory: https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and-security/safety-of-plants/liability-for-nuclear-damage.aspx https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/safety-and...

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ZeroGravitas 3y ago
The difference in electricity costs between France and Denmark (and pretty much any other such simplistic comparison you see) is often highly influenced by taxation policy. You can tax energy use to encourage conservation or you can subsidize it via general taxes. https://energy.ec.europa.eu/data-and-analysis/energy-prices-and-costs-europe/dashboard-energy-prices-eu-and-main-trading-partners_en https://energy.ec.europa.eu/data-and-analysis/energy-prices-... The wholesale electricity prices in Denmark and France are both directly in line with the EU average. Switch to consumer prices and Denmark becomes the maximum, and France drops below the average. You can see a similar pattern with gas (both natural gas and gasoline) prices, they're roughly the same wholesale but Denmark's consumer prices are higher.
- frafra 3y ago
  Is it Denmark really putting taxes on electricity so high that a kWh costs 2 times more than in France? Just to reduce consumption? The interesting data you linked clearly shows the problem with high mix of renewables: even if the average wholesale price is the similar, the final cost can be way higher because people need electricity at 6 PM and not so much at 4 AM, and the costs of a more unstable system are higher (such as delivery costs). Similar production price, totally different value. That is the difference between LCOE and the costs estimates which include other factors, such as the firming intermittency price estimations published in Lazard 2023. The similar patter you see in oil and gas could be because of taxes, but the difference is below 10 %, not 200 %.