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Anybody care to define "wealth management" as opposed to run-of-the-mill personal accounting? Why would I use this instead of ledger[1], for example? - [1]: ht

by darau1 3y ago

Anybody care to define "wealth management" as opposed to run-of-the-mill personal accounting? Why would I use this instead of ledger[1], for example? - [1]: https://ledger-cli.org/doc/ledger3.html https://ledger-cli.org/doc/ledger3.html

tr3ntg 3y ago
If you're using a tool like ledger, I don't think there's much ghostfolio could say to convert you. Seems like comparing apples to oranges. I'm not familiar with ledger, but at a glance, seems like it's made for a different audience with different needs.
- berkes 3y ago
  In fact, I'm working on something alike Ghostfolio but that uses ledger as database. It's very much early stage and mostly proof of concept and hacked together scripts. But I'm moving it to both "tabula" and "bullboard": https://github.com/berkes/bullboard-rs https://github.com/berkes/bullboard-rs https://github.com/berkes/tabula https://github.com/berkes/tabula Again: early. But tabula is my consolidation of random "beancount/ledger" stuff regarding running my small business and startup. And bullboard my consolidation of random "beancount/ledger" stuff regarding everything investment related. The latter is just a CLI tool for now, and barely works. But once the businesslogic is done, I plan to add a web-interface alike ghostfolio to it. A tad simpler, I think, though.
  - darau1 3y ago
    That's interesting. So, if I understand this thread at all, your projects may help me to "preserve" my "wealth", with ledger?
    - berkes 3y ago
      It won't "preserve" it: if you sell or buy at the wrong time and place, it won't prevent you. It's basically a way to visualize your portfolio: hows it doing, what are your allocations, how well are you keeping your strategy? do you need to rebalance? Basically "bullboard" will be "yet another portfolio tracker/manager". Like so many out there (Ghostfolio, PortfolioDividendTracker etc), nothing new. The only difference is that the source is your (existing) ledger/beancount file. To be clear: it currently is a CLI application, but the goal is for it to be a web tool. Also selfhostable. https://github.com/redstreet/fava_investor https://github.com/redstreet/fava_investor already exists in this space and is very similar: it's what I currently use. I don't like it, though. I dislike python for bookkeeping software and complex domain modelling. I dislike the UX of fava. And I prefer opinionated, focused software: call a spade a spade. Not "Assets", "Income" or "Transactions" but Stocks, ETFs, Bonds, Dividend, Sells, Buys etc.
felipellrocha 3y ago
I would say ledger is more about knowing where your money is going, and ghostfolio is about making sure you minimize the risk of losing said money all at once after you hit a certain wealth threshold
mmmpop 3y ago
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olejorgenb 3y ago
Can ledger track performance over time (which I assume Ghostfolio can). Does ledger (or the eco-system around) come with integration towards sources which categorize assets, and can it easily give a breakdown of the exposure according to such categorizations (per industry, per region, etc.)?
- berkes 3y ago
  Yes, no. Yes, Ledger can do all those things. No, it doesn't do this "out of the box". I do most of these things. Simple, by adding meta-tags to my ledger. I'm just now working on consolidating on all my willy-nilly scripts and tools. And then plan to turn this into an actual "investment dashboard" ala ghostfolio but using the ledger as source. In the end, a plain-text-ledger is just a of database. And the ledger query language (e.g. bean-query-language) a way to query it and produce reports. So, what you are asking is more like "can SQLite categorize assets, give a breakdown of the exposure according to such cats per industry, region etc". Well, sure it can. But it's a bit of a strange question.
  - olejorgenb 3y ago
    Of course it's possible to implement these features on top of any system which stores the transactions... but I'm sure you agree that to a user it matters that these things are accessible without writing lots of willy-nilly scripts, and preferable not having to add such meta-tags manually when other sources have already categorized them. Thus I suspect there's space for more specialized solutions like Ghostfolio. Although I myself would prefer if my accounting system could also do these things. (I'd be interested in these willy-nilly scripts. I also enjoy writing willy-nilly scripts, but time is limited) EDIT: saw the link you already posted
    - berkes 3y ago
      I entirely agree. And this is why I'm building use-focused, case-specific tools around ledger/beancount.
  - lannisterstark 3y ago
multicast 3y ago
"Real" wealth management has a lot more legal work behind it since a non trivial portion of wealth management are topics like inheritance and planing for the next generation. Also wealth management is more focused on wealth preservation than generating high returns, that is more the focus of asset management (e.g. hedge funds, private equity etc.). But since this piece of software is focused on the individual the term seems applicable even though something like personal finance would be more suitable. For "real" wealth management you hire usually professionals. It has a lot of good and bad sides that a majority of people think that when it comes to finance they can compete on an equal level with experts who do this every day. But if your skilled you surely save a ton of fees.
- mikeryan 3y ago
  Also wealth management is more focused on wealth preservation than generating high returns, that is more the focus of asset management (e.g. hedge funds, private equity etc.). This is a bit simplistic. It’s more focused on setting a target return and cash flows consistent with your current life plans. Whether this is a defensive or more aggressive position is really up to you and your goals. But Wealth managers are about putting an investment strategy in place to achieve that. They also help actively manage your portfolio to address macroeconomic trends.
- vba616 3y ago
  >"Real" wealth management has a lot more legal work behind it This is just me, but if I had legal work and deep pockets, I'd hire a lawyer. >a majority of people think that when it comes to finance they can compete on an equal level with experts who do this every day >But if your skilled you surely save a ton of fees. If you are "focused on wealth preservation" rather than "generating high returns", what is the need for skill? If I won the lottery, and I just sent, say, a $500M check to a regular discount broker and bought an index fund, is someone going to take it away from me? Are the wealth management divisions of every podunk bank and credit union there for a reason? Would I need to hire "protection"? Warren Buffett famously said he "upon his passing, has directed the trustee for his wife’s benefit to “put 10% of the cash in short-term government bonds and 90% in a very low-cost S&P 500 index fund.” And Barack Obama reportedly put all his assets in government bonds when he became President to avoid conflicts of interest. Obviously not everyone takes this sort of simple approach, but some famous examples seem to prove it's possible.

by darau1 3y ago

tr3ntg 3y ago

If you're using a tool like ledger, I don't think there's much ghostfolio could say to convert you. Seems like comparing apples to oranges. I'm not familiar with ledger, but at a glance, seems like it's made for a different audience with different needs.

berkes 3y ago
In fact, I'm working on something alike Ghostfolio but that uses ledger as database. It's very much early stage and mostly proof of concept and hacked together scripts. But I'm moving it to both "tabula" and "bullboard": https://github.com/berkes/bullboard-rs https://github.com/berkes/bullboard-rs https://github.com/berkes/tabula https://github.com/berkes/tabula Again: early. But tabula is my consolidation of random "beancount/ledger" stuff regarding running my small business and startup. And bullboard my consolidation of random "beancount/ledger" stuff regarding everything investment related. The latter is just a CLI tool for now, and barely works. But once the businesslogic is done, I plan to add a web-interface alike ghostfolio to it. A tad simpler, I think, though.
- darau1 3y ago
  That's interesting. So, if I understand this thread at all, your projects may help me to "preserve" my "wealth", with ledger?
  - berkes 3y ago
    It won't "preserve" it: if you sell or buy at the wrong time and place, it won't prevent you. It's basically a way to visualize your portfolio: hows it doing, what are your allocations, how well are you keeping your strategy? do you need to rebalance? Basically "bullboard" will be "yet another portfolio tracker/manager". Like so many out there (Ghostfolio, PortfolioDividendTracker etc), nothing new. The only difference is that the source is your (existing) ledger/beancount file. To be clear: it currently is a CLI application, but the goal is for it to be a web tool. Also selfhostable. https://github.com/redstreet/fava_investor https://github.com/redstreet/fava_investor already exists in this space and is very similar: it's what I currently use. I don't like it, though. I dislike python for bookkeeping software and complex domain modelling. I dislike the UX of fava. And I prefer opinionated, focused software: call a spade a spade. Not "Assets", "Income" or "Transactions" but Stocks, ETFs, Bonds, Dividend, Sells, Buys etc.

felipellrocha 3y ago

I would say ledger is more about knowing where your money is going, and ghostfolio is about making sure you minimize the risk of losing said money all at once after you hit a certain wealth threshold

mmmpop 3y ago

[dead]

olejorgenb 3y ago

Can ledger track performance over time (which I assume Ghostfolio can). Does ledger (or the eco-system around) come with integration towards sources which categorize assets, and can it easily give a breakdown of the exposure according to such categorizations (per industry, per region, etc.)?

berkes 3y ago
Yes, no. Yes, Ledger can do all those things. No, it doesn't do this "out of the box". I do most of these things. Simple, by adding meta-tags to my ledger. I'm just now working on consolidating on all my willy-nilly scripts and tools. And then plan to turn this into an actual "investment dashboard" ala ghostfolio but using the ledger as source. In the end, a plain-text-ledger is just a of database. And the ledger query language (e.g. bean-query-language) a way to query it and produce reports. So, what you are asking is more like "can SQLite categorize assets, give a breakdown of the exposure according to such cats per industry, region etc". Well, sure it can. But it's a bit of a strange question.
- olejorgenb 3y ago
  Of course it's possible to implement these features on top of any system which stores the transactions... but I'm sure you agree that to a user it matters that these things are accessible without writing lots of willy-nilly scripts, and preferable not having to add such meta-tags manually when other sources have already categorized them. Thus I suspect there's space for more specialized solutions like Ghostfolio. Although I myself would prefer if my accounting system could also do these things. (I'd be interested in these willy-nilly scripts. I also enjoy writing willy-nilly scripts, but time is limited) EDIT: saw the link you already posted
  - berkes 3y ago
    I entirely agree. And this is why I'm building use-focused, case-specific tools around ledger/beancount.
- lannisterstark 3y ago

multicast 3y ago

"Real" wealth management has a lot more legal work behind it since a non trivial portion of wealth management are topics like inheritance and planing for the next generation. Also wealth management is more focused on wealth preservation than generating high returns, that is more the focus of asset management (e.g. hedge funds, private equity etc.). But since this piece of software is focused on the individual the term seems applicable even though something like personal finance would be more suitable. For "real" wealth management you hire usually professionals. It has a lot of good and bad sides that a majority of people think that when it comes to finance they can compete on an equal level with experts who do this every day. But if your skilled you surely save a ton of fees.

mikeryan 3y ago
Also wealth management is more focused on wealth preservation than generating high returns, that is more the focus of asset management (e.g. hedge funds, private equity etc.). This is a bit simplistic. It’s more focused on setting a target return and cash flows consistent with your current life plans. Whether this is a defensive or more aggressive position is really up to you and your goals. But Wealth managers are about putting an investment strategy in place to achieve that. They also help actively manage your portfolio to address macroeconomic trends.
vba616 3y ago
>"Real" wealth management has a lot more legal work behind it This is just me, but if I had legal work and deep pockets, I'd hire a lawyer. >a majority of people think that when it comes to finance they can compete on an equal level with experts who do this every day >But if your skilled you surely save a ton of fees. If you are "focused on wealth preservation" rather than "generating high returns", what is the need for skill? If I won the lottery, and I just sent, say, a $500M check to a regular discount broker and bought an index fund, is someone going to take it away from me? Are the wealth management divisions of every podunk bank and credit union there for a reason? Would I need to hire "protection"? Warren Buffett famously said he "upon his passing, has directed the trustee for his wife’s benefit to “put 10% of the cash in short-term government bonds and 90% in a very low-cost S&P 500 index fund.” And Barack Obama reportedly put all his assets in government bonds when he became President to avoid conflicts of interest. Obviously not everyone takes this sort of simple approach, but some famous examples seem to prove it's possible.