5 ms·

I had a card-carrying communist teacher in high school, and he used to say that representative democracy was obsolete because we now have better mechanisms for

by jl2718 3y ago

I had a card-carrying communist teacher in high school, and he used to say that representative democracy was obsolete because we now have better mechanisms for Athenian-style direct democracy. These referendums seems to indicate that this would swiftly put an end to his entire ideology. I would also like to point out that every time there is a referendum in California, the people go with the conservative position, but every time there is an election, it goes to a liberal candidate. How is this possible?

reducesuffering 3y ago
Every time? There’s like 10 props each election. Go on Ballotpedia, there’s tons of “liberal” props that pass.
hattmall 3y ago
> I would also like to point out that every time there is a referendum in California, the people go with the conservative position, but every time there is an election, it goes to a liberal candidate. How is this possible? In a lot of the broad topics most people align with conservative positions, liberal ideology for many is a product of propaganda and the natural desire to fit in. It's much easier to put money behind a candidate and have it equal results than a specific policy. The burden to change people's default opinion on a specific issue is much tougher. You can easily see the vastly larger amount of money spent on liberal candidates vs conservative. As well this is why liberal candidates tend to struggle in rural areas. In rural areas people typically have larger and stronger social connections so the effectiveness of in group propaganda is greatly diminished.
- sroussey 3y ago
  "In rural areas people typically have larger and stronger social connections" with people that look and act just like them. It is very hard to go against the grain in a small community, and they often want to fit in and "group propaganda" is part of that community, whereas in metropolitan areas, you can just ignore those that have different ideas about how to live. It is small towns where you have the fervent conservatives that can easily slide into hate and violence against "others". This is not an American thing, this is true worldwide.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  Sweden sure propagandized themselves to far better living conditions than rural West Virginia, that’s amazing.
  - hattmall 3y ago
    Sweden is a terrible example unless you are on board with the idea of 100 yr mortgages. Rural-WV is also a pretty bad example because it's a very historically democrat area that's mostly reliant on a single industry that's been decimated. Rural WV went from above average prosperity to impoverished in a single generation due entirely to outside influences. Additionally WV Median PPP is $48,662 vs Sweden's only $32,788. But at least in 2016 Sweden moved to reduce the maximum length of a mortgage to 105 years.
    - reducesuffering 3y ago
      So Sweden's quality of life is bad simply because of the existence of 100 yr mortgages? Also, I'm gonna need a source on your "median ppp" because it's completely different than PPP per capita, which is Sweden at $64.5k and West Virginia at $41.5k. Sweden life expectancy: 82.4. West Virginia life expectancy: 72.8 Sweden HDI: .947 West Virginia HDI: .877 Rural WV is a textbook case of conservatism. They were only old-school Democrats because of labor union advocacy. Their 2020 Presidential vote was 68% R. So since they're so un-brainwashed, they must have the clarity to be doing super well, no? You could replace them with any Red state in the US. Want to guess how the quality of life metrics in Mississippi, Tennessee, and Oklahoma are doing? Face it, your claims of propaganda directly contradict the quality of life metrics that red states experience vs. "progressive propaganda" bastions like Sweden that have higher taxes, a more diverse economy, no problems with gay people, universal healthcare and education. If you want to deny that, then it's crystal clear where the "propaganda" actually exists.
      - hattmall 3y ago
        >So Sweden's quality of life is bad simply because of the existence of 100 yr mortgages? Objectively. Yes. An entire population that's ultimately subjected to a usurious form of renting where you are responsible for maintenance and the ideal scenario is that when you die the house has gone up in value enough that the remaining years on the mortgage can be paid off is very dystopian, it doesn't matter how easy it is to catch a bus. Though it's not surprising for a country which still has a monarchy. Source for Household Net Adjusted disposable is OECD. You can look here: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=IDD https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=IDD or summarized: Countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income West Virginia Median @ $50k USA as well West Virginia gets a 15% boost for lower COL: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/WV/INC110221 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/WV/INC110221 If you really want to think about what's propaganda, just look at the fact that you are taking the very top tier or progressive ideals and comparing it to one of the most entirely downtrodden areas. An area that was only ever populated because of an industry that rapidly declined and was specifically targeted by pharma companies to push opiates. For a better comparison look at the fastest growing zip codes in the US. https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national/population/map-of-fastest-growing-zipcodes-in-the-united-states https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national/population/map-of-faste... Compare them to Sweden. Then, if you're brave, look here and see how they vote (They didn't ALL go for Trump): https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-electio...
jjtheblunt 3y ago
As a californian for the better part of two decades, and one who shares your observation and question, I suspect that the voter base for referendum issues differs from the voter base for elections. i don't know how to validate that suspicion, though.
thesnide 3y ago
They embrace liberal ideas but hate liberal persons? Joke aside, referendums are a narrow scope usually. So you choose what you like the most. Or a candidate has a broad scope so you usually have to choose what you what you dislike the least.

by jl2718 3y ago

reducesuffering 3y ago

Every time? There’s like 10 props each election. Go on Ballotpedia, there’s tons of “liberal” props that pass.

hattmall 3y ago

> I would also like to point out that every time there is a referendum in California, the people go with the conservative position, but every time there is an election, it goes to a liberal candidate. How is this possible? In a lot of the broad topics most people align with conservative positions, liberal ideology for many is a product of propaganda and the natural desire to fit in. It's much easier to put money behind a candidate and have it equal results than a specific policy. The burden to change people's default opinion on a specific issue is much tougher. You can easily see the vastly larger amount of money spent on liberal candidates vs conservative. As well this is why liberal candidates tend to struggle in rural areas. In rural areas people typically have larger and stronger social connections so the effectiveness of in group propaganda is greatly diminished.

sroussey 3y ago
"In rural areas people typically have larger and stronger social connections" with people that look and act just like them. It is very hard to go against the grain in a small community, and they often want to fit in and "group propaganda" is part of that community, whereas in metropolitan areas, you can just ignore those that have different ideas about how to live. It is small towns where you have the fervent conservatives that can easily slide into hate and violence against "others". This is not an American thing, this is true worldwide.
reducesuffering 3y ago
Sweden sure propagandized themselves to far better living conditions than rural West Virginia, that’s amazing.
- hattmall 3y ago
  Sweden is a terrible example unless you are on board with the idea of 100 yr mortgages. Rural-WV is also a pretty bad example because it's a very historically democrat area that's mostly reliant on a single industry that's been decimated. Rural WV went from above average prosperity to impoverished in a single generation due entirely to outside influences. Additionally WV Median PPP is $48,662 vs Sweden's only $32,788. But at least in 2016 Sweden moved to reduce the maximum length of a mortgage to 105 years.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    So Sweden's quality of life is bad simply because of the existence of 100 yr mortgages? Also, I'm gonna need a source on your "median ppp" because it's completely different than PPP per capita, which is Sweden at $64.5k and West Virginia at $41.5k. Sweden life expectancy: 82.4. West Virginia life expectancy: 72.8 Sweden HDI: .947 West Virginia HDI: .877 Rural WV is a textbook case of conservatism. They were only old-school Democrats because of labor union advocacy. Their 2020 Presidential vote was 68% R. So since they're so un-brainwashed, they must have the clarity to be doing super well, no? You could replace them with any Red state in the US. Want to guess how the quality of life metrics in Mississippi, Tennessee, and Oklahoma are doing? Face it, your claims of propaganda directly contradict the quality of life metrics that red states experience vs. "progressive propaganda" bastions like Sweden that have higher taxes, a more diverse economy, no problems with gay people, universal healthcare and education. If you want to deny that, then it's crystal clear where the "propaganda" actually exists.
    - hattmall 3y ago
      >So Sweden's quality of life is bad simply because of the existence of 100 yr mortgages? Objectively. Yes. An entire population that's ultimately subjected to a usurious form of renting where you are responsible for maintenance and the ideal scenario is that when you die the house has gone up in value enough that the remaining years on the mortgage can be paid off is very dystopian, it doesn't matter how easy it is to catch a bus. Though it's not surprising for a country which still has a monarchy. Source for Household Net Adjusted disposable is OECD. You can look here: https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=IDD https://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?DataSetCode=IDD or summarized: Countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Median_income West Virginia Median @ $50k USA as well West Virginia gets a 15% boost for lower COL: https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/WV/INC110221 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/WV/INC110221 If you really want to think about what's propaganda, just look at the fact that you are taking the very top tier or progressive ideals and comparing it to one of the most entirely downtrodden areas. An area that was only ever populated because of an industry that rapidly declined and was specifically targeted by pharma companies to push opiates. For a better comparison look at the fastest growing zip codes in the US. https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national/population/map-of-fastest-growing-zipcodes-in-the-united-states https://www.zipdatamaps.com/national/population/map-of-faste... Compare them to Sweden. Then, if you're brave, look here and see how they vote (They didn't ALL go for Trump): https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-election-map.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/upshot/2020-electio...

jjtheblunt 3y ago

As a californian for the better part of two decades, and one who shares your observation and question, I suspect that the voter base for referendum issues differs from the voter base for elections. i don't know how to validate that suspicion, though.

thesnide 3y ago

They embrace liberal ideas but hate liberal persons? Joke aside, referendums are a narrow scope usually. So you choose what you like the most. Or a candidate has a broad scope so you usually have to choose what you what you dislike the least.