5 ms·

"Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you." I suppose it varies with culture, but I can't imagine any of the wom

by jeswin 15y ago

"Women: Need another beer? Let one of our friendly (female) event staff get that for you." I suppose it varies with culture, but I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line. So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offended.

shrikant 15y ago
Like orblivion in his comment [1], I too didn't initially understand what was so sexist about that line, then I clicked through to the Cloudmine blog-post on the issue, which had a screenshot of the event posting in question [2]. This made it clearer: that line is not addressing women, it's addressing the event attendees and listing "Women" as one of the perks, because "friendly (female) event staff" get beers for the attendees. It's difficult to believe how a company can offer up "women" as a 'perk', and not expect the reaction that followed. On a completely different note: it's extremely annoying having to hunt down links when they have exactly the same styling as the surrounding text, like in the Cloudmine blog. [3] -- [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3733914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3733914 [2] https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.png https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.p... [3] http://blog.cloudmine.me/post/19639692371/sexism-in-tech http://blog.cloudmine.me/post/19639692371/sexism-in-tech
mtoddh 15y ago
So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything Yes - and many people are going to see this as a good thing (and some won't). I think the best route is to never include any references to gender, (or race, or any hot button issue) in any of your promotional material, slides, talks or whatever. Even if it's intended as light-hearted humor.
- _delirium 15y ago
  It's interesting that this sort of thing rarely happens with race in tech (not never, but it's uncommon). I think given various bits of cultural history/etc., people have a stronger internal voice saying "uhh, do you really want to say that?" when it comes to making race-related jokes in public, especially connected to anything official.
  - rsynnott 15y ago
    > It's interesting that this sort of thing rarely happens with race in tech (not never, but it's uncommon). In many (most?) cultures, sexist comments are still _far_ more socially acceptable than racist comments. Look at dumb blonde jokes; distasteful and offensive, but many people are willing to make them in public; substitute an ethnic minority for the 'dumb blonde' and you'd find that far, far fewer people would be willing to make them. You see the same with casual homophobia; it's not socially acceptable, but it's far, far less shocking than racism.
- cgoddard 15y ago
  Yes, making assumptions about people based on their race, sex, heritage, etc. is not okay, especially not in a professional setting.
raganwald 15y ago
Thinking about how others may react before speaking is part of our DNA, it's not some new idea. What we think about evolves, but the basic principle is as old as humanity. I call it "being considerate," as in considering the effect our choices may have before we make them.
jacobian 15y ago
Please read the whole context: https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.png https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.p... "Women" are being presented in a list of "great perks" -- along with "food trucks", "top shelf booze", and "dark chocolate". This is pretty much a textbook example of objectification. This sort of objectification and othering is part of what keeps women out of tech, and that's a loss to everyone. More women joining our community means more people in our community, and that's a win for everyone. >I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line. Have you actually asked any women who work in tech about what it's like? Spending just a little time listening to what women in our industry think about the culture can be an eye-opening experience. I'm not doubting that you can find women who aren't offended by this, but that's quite beside the point. It's essentially the "I have black friends so how can I be racist!?" defense — so laughable that Colbert uses it as a running gag on his program. > So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offended. If you think sexist and racist jokes are acceptable then yes, you probably should think twice before making jokes.
- plusbryan 15y ago
  Finally some context! Without the context of the list above, I kept reading "Women:" not as a perk in a list, but as a declarative. I kept wondering why people could be offended by them saying that women were permitted beer. Now, I see.
  - rdl 15y ago
    I am somewhat more offended by their horrible spelling and grammar. I would have probably written the whole thing off as a troll (high level of promised services, amateur spelling, unknown startup, and overt sexism. Maybe one of those things could get a slight pass)
Jem 15y ago
As a woman, and a woman in tech at that, I'm not /upset/ by it, but it does bother me. It bothers me that the organisers assume the attendees will all be straight males and therefore interested in the fact that the servers are women. It bothers me that it plays on the antiquated notion that "women are there to serve". It bothers me that women are being treated as a 'perk', full stop.
- cheez 15y ago
  But for men, the ultimate perk is a good woman. Is there something wrong with wanting women around? I've seen actual sexism in the workplace but I don't think wanting women around a sausage fest is sexist. It's being male.
  - mikeash 15y ago
    There's nothing wrong with it, certainly. However, the correct way to have women around at your conference is to make your conference interesting to women in the field, not hire them to serve beer. From the perspective of wanting women around, this "perk" basically says that they've given up on getting women in the field to want to come to their conference, and the only way to get them there is to hire them. It's pretty lame.
    - cheez 15y ago
      This, I agree with. My job is not to change society though. My job is to enjoy my life and guide my kids. That's it. And I'll enjoy it more with some nice women around.
      - mikeash 15y ago
        Who said anything about changing society? There are ways to attract more women to your conference, and hiring beer ladies and playing them up as a perk is almost the exact opposite of that.
        15y ago
mikeash 15y ago
I think this line really needs to be preserved in its context. "Women" was listed as a perk. To me, it reads as this close to a wink and a nod that they will procure prostitutes for attendees.
cgoddard 15y ago
For someone who's part of a group that hasn't been historically marginalized and discriminated against it's a lot easier to laugh off racist or sexist jokes regarding their own differences. With a bad historical precedent however, an otherwise harmless joke reinforces and reinvigorates past discrimination and marginalization, and actively contributes to a hostile culture and specifically a hostile work environment in this case. Just because you wouldn't be offended by something doesn't mean lots of other people aren't, or that your harmless and thoughtless jokes aren't deeply offensive and repugnant for historical reasons you possibly haven't considered.

by jeswin 15y ago

shrikant 15y ago

Like orblivion in his comment [1], I too didn't initially understand what was so sexist about that line, then I clicked through to the Cloudmine blog-post on the issue, which had a screenshot of the event posting in question [2]. This made it clearer: that line is not addressing women, it's addressing the event attendees and listing "Women" as one of the perks, because "friendly (female) event staff" get beers for the attendees. It's difficult to believe how a company can offer up "women" as a 'perk', and not expect the reaction that followed. On a completely different note: it's extremely annoying having to hunt down links when they have exactly the same styling as the surrounding text, like in the Cloudmine blog. [3] -- [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3733914 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3733914 [2] https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.png https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.p... [3] http://blog.cloudmine.me/post/19639692371/sexism-in-tech http://blog.cloudmine.me/post/19639692371/sexism-in-tech

mtoddh 15y ago

So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything Yes - and many people are going to see this as a good thing (and some won't). I think the best route is to never include any references to gender, (or race, or any hot button issue) in any of your promotional material, slides, talks or whatever. Even if it's intended as light-hearted humor.

_delirium 15y ago
It's interesting that this sort of thing rarely happens with race in tech (not never, but it's uncommon). I think given various bits of cultural history/etc., people have a stronger internal voice saying "uhh, do you really want to say that?" when it comes to making race-related jokes in public, especially connected to anything official.
- rsynnott 15y ago
  > It's interesting that this sort of thing rarely happens with race in tech (not never, but it's uncommon). In many (most?) cultures, sexist comments are still _far_ more socially acceptable than racist comments. Look at dumb blonde jokes; distasteful and offensive, but many people are willing to make them in public; substitute an ethnic minority for the 'dumb blonde' and you'd find that far, far fewer people would be willing to make them. You see the same with casual homophobia; it's not socially acceptable, but it's far, far less shocking than racism.
cgoddard 15y ago
Yes, making assumptions about people based on their race, sex, heritage, etc. is not okay, especially not in a professional setting.

raganwald 15y ago

Thinking about how others may react before speaking is part of our DNA, it's not some new idea. What we think about evolves, but the basic principle is as old as humanity. I call it "being considerate," as in considering the effect our choices may have before we make them.

jacobian 15y ago

Please read the whole context: https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.png https://img.skitch.com/20120320-fmsc5mciy8e7n3nxhakmegxxg9.p... "Women" are being presented in a list of "great perks" -- along with "food trucks", "top shelf booze", and "dark chocolate". This is pretty much a textbook example of objectification. This sort of objectification and othering is part of what keeps women out of tech, and that's a loss to everyone. More women joining our community means more people in our community, and that's a win for everyone. >I can't imagine any of the women I know getting upset about that line. Have you actually asked any women who work in tech about what it's like? Spending just a little time listening to what women in our industry think about the culture can be an eye-opening experience. I'm not doubting that you can find women who aren't offended by this, but that's quite beside the point. It's essentially the "I have black friends so how can I be racist!?" defense — so laughable that Colbert uses it as a running gag on his program. > So a genuine question, are we getting to a point where you need to think so much before actually saying anything? Personally, even if I were the butt of a mildly racist joke I would probably enjoy the joke than be offended. If you think sexist and racist jokes are acceptable then yes, you probably should think twice before making jokes.

plusbryan 15y ago
Finally some context! Without the context of the list above, I kept reading "Women:" not as a perk in a list, but as a declarative. I kept wondering why people could be offended by them saying that women were permitted beer. Now, I see.
- rdl 15y ago
  I am somewhat more offended by their horrible spelling and grammar. I would have probably written the whole thing off as a troll (high level of promised services, amateur spelling, unknown startup, and overt sexism. Maybe one of those things could get a slight pass)

Jem 15y ago

As a woman, and a woman in tech at that, I'm not /upset/ by it, but it does bother me. It bothers me that the organisers assume the attendees will all be straight males and therefore interested in the fact that the servers are women. It bothers me that it plays on the antiquated notion that "women are there to serve". It bothers me that women are being treated as a 'perk', full stop.

cheez 15y ago
But for men, the ultimate perk is a good woman. Is there something wrong with wanting women around? I've seen actual sexism in the workplace but I don't think wanting women around a sausage fest is sexist. It's being male.
- mikeash 15y ago
  There's nothing wrong with it, certainly. However, the correct way to have women around at your conference is to make your conference interesting to women in the field, not hire them to serve beer. From the perspective of wanting women around, this "perk" basically says that they've given up on getting women in the field to want to come to their conference, and the only way to get them there is to hire them. It's pretty lame.
  - cheez 15y ago
    This, I agree with. My job is not to change society though. My job is to enjoy my life and guide my kids. That's it. And I'll enjoy it more with some nice women around.
    - mikeash 15y ago
      Who said anything about changing society? There are ways to attract more women to your conference, and hiring beer ladies and playing them up as a perk is almost the exact opposite of that.
      - 15y ago

mikeash 15y ago

I think this line really needs to be preserved in its context. "Women" was listed as a perk. To me, it reads as this close to a wink and a nod that they will procure prostitutes for attendees.

cgoddard 15y ago

For someone who's part of a group that hasn't been historically marginalized and discriminated against it's a lot easier to laugh off racist or sexist jokes regarding their own differences. With a bad historical precedent however, an otherwise harmless joke reinforces and reinvigorates past discrimination and marginalization, and actively contributes to a hostile culture and specifically a hostile work environment in this case. Just because you wouldn't be offended by something doesn't mean lots of other people aren't, or that your harmless and thoughtless jokes aren't deeply offensive and repugnant for historical reasons you possibly haven't considered.