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Insert "buying from" before the last word This is entirely within people's own hands. Not all of those people are you and me, it also includes our boss who dec

by Aachen 3y ago

Insert "buying from" before the last word This is entirely within people's own hands. Not all of those people are you and me, it also includes our boss who decides to buy combustion vehicles for employees still (what year is it?), but in the end it's individual humans that decide for themselves whether to continue paying for oil products when there are alternatives available such as with personal vehicles. Maybe a majority overrules you if you're in some committee or board, but every vote was again an individual's choice. I don't see Shell or any oil company as being fully and solely responsible here

throwaway894345 3y ago
Of course, if we can just wish businesses into making climate-friendly choices (like moving fleets to EV instead of ICE, per your example), then we can just wish Shell into getting out of oil and gas altogether. And the corollary is that if we can't wish Shell into getting out of oil and gas altogether, then we can't wish other businesses into making climate-friendly choices, so we're left with politics: penalizing (instead of incentivizing) fossil fuel consumption (including border adjustments so we don't just export our consumption of fossil fuels) and/or national programs to shift the grid to renewables and electrify fossil fuel applications.
- Aachen 3y ago
  I'm not "wishing" anyone else. I'm saying we have a choice, a place in this world, and it's not abstract evil bigcorps that you can fully push the problem onto. If we'd sweep in front of our own doors first, Shell wouldn't find it as lucrative to continue to mostly invest in oil. Since they do, apparently there are bigger issues than Shell.
rlili 3y ago
Naive. As long as they can deliver competitive prices, most people with poor buying power will have no choice but to buy from them, or buy some product derived from their products.
svachalek 3y ago
If you leave it to that, most people don't care. They'll take whatever's cheapest, and what damage it does to the environment or other people is not a consideration. All of that stuff is happening far away, over long periods of time, but the nickel saved is right here and right now. If you want to leave it up to all 8 billion people in the world to take individual responsibility to end climate change, extinction, slavery, etc. then the approximate change accomplished is something approaching zero.
- Aachen 3y ago
  How did we ever get anything done then, if not by each of us deciding a certain way is best? We sure didn't wait for an overlord to force democracy upon us and abolish slavery as far as I know. The version of history I heard includes needing uprisings (made up of people that each believe in the cause) to get here.

by Aachen 3y ago

throwaway894345 3y ago

Of course, if we can just wish businesses into making climate-friendly choices (like moving fleets to EV instead of ICE, per your example), then we can just wish Shell into getting out of oil and gas altogether. And the corollary is that if we can't wish Shell into getting out of oil and gas altogether, then we can't wish other businesses into making climate-friendly choices, so we're left with politics: penalizing (instead of incentivizing) fossil fuel consumption (including border adjustments so we don't just export our consumption of fossil fuels) and/or national programs to shift the grid to renewables and electrify fossil fuel applications.

Aachen 3y ago
I'm not "wishing" anyone else. I'm saying we have a choice, a place in this world, and it's not abstract evil bigcorps that you can fully push the problem onto. If we'd sweep in front of our own doors first, Shell wouldn't find it as lucrative to continue to mostly invest in oil. Since they do, apparently there are bigger issues than Shell.

rlili 3y ago

Naive. As long as they can deliver competitive prices, most people with poor buying power will have no choice but to buy from them, or buy some product derived from their products.

svachalek 3y ago

If you leave it to that, most people don't care. They'll take whatever's cheapest, and what damage it does to the environment or other people is not a consideration. All of that stuff is happening far away, over long periods of time, but the nickel saved is right here and right now. If you want to leave it up to all 8 billion people in the world to take individual responsibility to end climate change, extinction, slavery, etc. then the approximate change accomplished is something approaching zero.

Aachen 3y ago
How did we ever get anything done then, if not by each of us deciding a certain way is best? We sure didn't wait for an overlord to force democracy upon us and abolish slavery as far as I know. The version of history I heard includes needing uprisings (made up of people that each believe in the cause) to get here.