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Work issued me an M1 MacBook Pro, but all my development is under Linux. Linux has been my preferred environment since the late 90s. While I find the MacBook Pr

by l72 3y ago

Work issued me an M1 MacBook Pro, but all my development is under Linux. Linux has been my preferred environment since the late 90s. While I find the MacBook Pro hardware to be nice, I find macos clumsy and frustrating, and my productivity severely drops. So, I run Fedora (aarch64) under UTM full screen. It works acceptably well, and I often forget I'm on a mac. I just wish macos would get out of the way, and not sometimes knock you out of full screen mode.

bandergirl 3y ago
What’s stopping you from dual booting it?
- cosmojg 3y ago
  In my case, their MDM software of choice doesn't run on Linux.
- l72 3y ago
  As Asahi stabilizes (especially with their new Fedora remix), that is my plan.
- SamuelAdams 3y ago
  Currently using Ashai on Arch Linux. The lack of Thunderbolt support is a deal breaker, as I need to use external monitors for work. Still excited to see progress but I’m probably not going to be able to use Linux on a Mac for another 12 months.
- ukuina 3y ago
  You can't dual-boot on Apple Silicon Macs, outside of the experimental Asahi Linux.
petesergeant 3y ago
How much of a performance hit would you estimate you take from doing that? Seems like a nice solution if not too much
- l72 3y ago
  I'm not doing any super heavy cpu workloads nor any heavy 3d graphics, so I don't really notice any issues. Surprisingly, the battery lifetime is still excellent.
- _y5hn 3y ago
  M1+ is quite fast hardware. If not for lack of hardware compatibility with projects based on x86/x64, it'd be the best option. I think Parallells give you more, but I do a big window in UTM over 2 displays which works quite well and doesn't break rest of the OS X flow. Mic doesn't work, you occasionally have correct audio output, but OS X audio daemons sucks so it's a crapshoot if you get audio and where/how it's output. You don't get 3d accelleration I think, but haven't tried. It's not for games or Teams (neither is OS X). But it works reasonably well for software that runs on arm64, which on Linux may limit you a bit. But you get to make things work either on OS X or Linux arm64, and the rest works well. You may not notice much overhead compared to OS X on M1+. As with everything, you can make it work for you, but it's not for gaming, CAD, some proprietary or limited projects, etc. Should be fine for development and sysadmin stuff. If something works on Linux arm64 on M1, it's quite well supported you might say. So you get to weed out some fluff, but also some nice things.
  - Terretta 3y ago
    Given the multiple perf/$ boost of ARM on cloud hosts (e.g. AWS Graviton), that hardware compatibility can be put to work for recurring monthly profitability at the expense of helping OSS ecosystem learn that ARM exists. https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/08/amazon_arm_servers/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/08/amazon_arm_servers/
  - ceddiexd 3y ago
    I've found Rosetta works really well with VMs using Apple's Virtualisation framework, to the point that I've not had any issues building niche proprietary x86-only C++ libraries like network card drivers. The only annoyance was spoofing uname -m and/or setting architecture build flags everywhere since build systems will try to target arm64, but actually getting things to build was far less painful than I thought it would be. I'm thoroughly impressed. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/running_intel_binaries_in_linux_vms_with_rosetta https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...
mattsan 3y ago
I would definitely keep an eye out for Fedora Asahi Linux
jerieljan 3y ago
The Linux -> macOS experience tbh is really either about putting up with macOS' issues and adjusting to them, or patching things up with third-party solutions to make it tolerable. Or a bit of both. I've learned to adapt to it since it's a shame to miss out on the reliable battery life. Maybe there's a solution out there somewhere that would let you stay in full screen mode.
- sangnoir 3y ago
  > I've learned to adapt to it since it's a shame to miss out on the reliable battery life. Is the long battery life a feature you use often, or is it more of a "I'm glad it's there, just in case I need it" feature?
  - jerieljan 3y ago
    Maybe around once a week, sometimes twice? It's not so often, but on occasions when I have to, it's nice to have long, reliable battery life since they're usually the times when there's also a notable lack of power outlets, or it's inconvenient to set up to plug and charge. But yeah, I can imagine myself in the same situations with UTM running nonstop and it'd still have enough battery life.
kevstev 3y ago
What specifically makes your productivity drop? I find having a terminal running bash on my mac is more or less same/same as being in linux. Occasionally the utils will not support a cli argument I am used to, but that's more of a versioning issue than a mac/linux issue, and one I have seen many times in my career sometimes just moving between boxes within a company. The biggest headaches, though they aren't that big, is really about ARM vs x86, sometimes you will come across a package that just isn't supported on ARM, though that is increasingly rare.
- l72 3y ago
  I really don't like mac os's graphical shell. I am constantly frustrated by how terrible its window management and virtual desktop support is. I also find developing on a mac is so frustrating. The package management experience is just such a downgrade. And then there are the apps. All my daily apps are open source, and the apps I use just tend to work so much better on linux then on mac os (if they are even available on mac os!)
  - SamuelAdams 3y ago
    The defaults are terrible. I use rectangle for window snapping, mos for mouse scrolling, and alt-tab for saner alt tab behavior. Why you can’t toggle between different instances of the same app by default is beyond me. But hey, we get more emojis!
    - AnonHP 3y ago
      > Why you can’t toggle between different instances of the same app by default is beyond me. I’m not entirely clear on what your requirement here is. Historically, Mac OS X/OS X/macOS has had a different app and windowing model compared to Linux. If you’re looking to switch between windows of a single app, you can use the keyboard shortcut Cmd + ~ (that’s Command and tilde). There are also trackpad gestures to see all windows of an application (swipe down with three or four fingers) and switch.
  - kevstev 3y ago
aslilac 3y ago
Asahi Fedora is supposed to come out in the next few days. There’s hope!

by l72 3y ago

bandergirl 3y ago

What’s stopping you from dual booting it?

cosmojg 3y ago
In my case, their MDM software of choice doesn't run on Linux.
l72 3y ago
As Asahi stabilizes (especially with their new Fedora remix), that is my plan.
SamuelAdams 3y ago
Currently using Ashai on Arch Linux. The lack of Thunderbolt support is a deal breaker, as I need to use external monitors for work. Still excited to see progress but I’m probably not going to be able to use Linux on a Mac for another 12 months.
ukuina 3y ago
You can't dual-boot on Apple Silicon Macs, outside of the experimental Asahi Linux.

petesergeant 3y ago

How much of a performance hit would you estimate you take from doing that? Seems like a nice solution if not too much

l72 3y ago
I'm not doing any super heavy cpu workloads nor any heavy 3d graphics, so I don't really notice any issues. Surprisingly, the battery lifetime is still excellent.
_y5hn 3y ago
M1+ is quite fast hardware. If not for lack of hardware compatibility with projects based on x86/x64, it'd be the best option. I think Parallells give you more, but I do a big window in UTM over 2 displays which works quite well and doesn't break rest of the OS X flow. Mic doesn't work, you occasionally have correct audio output, but OS X audio daemons sucks so it's a crapshoot if you get audio and where/how it's output. You don't get 3d accelleration I think, but haven't tried. It's not for games or Teams (neither is OS X). But it works reasonably well for software that runs on arm64, which on Linux may limit you a bit. But you get to make things work either on OS X or Linux arm64, and the rest works well. You may not notice much overhead compared to OS X on M1+. As with everything, you can make it work for you, but it's not for gaming, CAD, some proprietary or limited projects, etc. Should be fine for development and sysadmin stuff. If something works on Linux arm64 on M1, it's quite well supported you might say. So you get to weed out some fluff, but also some nice things.
- Terretta 3y ago
  Given the multiple perf/$ boost of ARM on cloud hosts (e.g. AWS Graviton), that hardware compatibility can be put to work for recurring monthly profitability at the expense of helping OSS ecosystem learn that ARM exists. https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/08/amazon_arm_servers/ https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/08/amazon_arm_servers/
- ceddiexd 3y ago
  I've found Rosetta works really well with VMs using Apple's Virtualisation framework, to the point that I've not had any issues building niche proprietary x86-only C++ libraries like network card drivers. The only annoyance was spoofing uname -m and/or setting architecture build flags everywhere since build systems will try to target arm64, but actually getting things to build was far less painful than I thought it would be. I'm thoroughly impressed. https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/running_intel_binaries_in_linux_vms_with_rosetta https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...

mattsan 3y ago

I would definitely keep an eye out for Fedora Asahi Linux

jerieljan 3y ago

The Linux -> macOS experience tbh is really either about putting up with macOS' issues and adjusting to them, or patching things up with third-party solutions to make it tolerable. Or a bit of both. I've learned to adapt to it since it's a shame to miss out on the reliable battery life. Maybe there's a solution out there somewhere that would let you stay in full screen mode.

sangnoir 3y ago
> I've learned to adapt to it since it's a shame to miss out on the reliable battery life. Is the long battery life a feature you use often, or is it more of a "I'm glad it's there, just in case I need it" feature?
- jerieljan 3y ago
  Maybe around once a week, sometimes twice? It's not so often, but on occasions when I have to, it's nice to have long, reliable battery life since they're usually the times when there's also a notable lack of power outlets, or it's inconvenient to set up to plug and charge. But yeah, I can imagine myself in the same situations with UTM running nonstop and it'd still have enough battery life.

kevstev 3y ago

What specifically makes your productivity drop? I find having a terminal running bash on my mac is more or less same/same as being in linux. Occasionally the utils will not support a cli argument I am used to, but that's more of a versioning issue than a mac/linux issue, and one I have seen many times in my career sometimes just moving between boxes within a company. The biggest headaches, though they aren't that big, is really about ARM vs x86, sometimes you will come across a package that just isn't supported on ARM, though that is increasingly rare.

l72 3y ago
I really don't like mac os's graphical shell. I am constantly frustrated by how terrible its window management and virtual desktop support is. I also find developing on a mac is so frustrating. The package management experience is just such a downgrade. And then there are the apps. All my daily apps are open source, and the apps I use just tend to work so much better on linux then on mac os (if they are even available on mac os!)
- SamuelAdams 3y ago
  The defaults are terrible. I use rectangle for window snapping, mos for mouse scrolling, and alt-tab for saner alt tab behavior. Why you can’t toggle between different instances of the same app by default is beyond me. But hey, we get more emojis!
  - AnonHP 3y ago
    > Why you can’t toggle between different instances of the same app by default is beyond me. I’m not entirely clear on what your requirement here is. Historically, Mac OS X/OS X/macOS has had a different app and windowing model compared to Linux. If you’re looking to switch between windows of a single app, you can use the keyboard shortcut Cmd + ~ (that’s Command and tilde). There are also trackpad gestures to see all windows of an application (swipe down with three or four fingers) and switch.
- kevstev 3y ago

aslilac 3y ago

Asahi Fedora is supposed to come out in the next few days. There’s hope!