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> Now that is off the table as Russia has formally included large part of Ukrainian coast into Russian Federation. That was off the table in 2014 when they did

by _kbh_ 3y ago

> Now that is off the table as Russia has formally included large part of Ukrainian coast into Russian Federation. That was off the table in 2014 when they did the exact same thing to Crimea, so theres no real change there, not that it changes the status of any of the territory they still remain areas of Ukraine (like Crimea) they are just temporarily occupied. > If by independence you mean the ability to persistently ignore your largest, trigger happy neighbour concerns - indeed such independence was likely doomed from the start. That's the "flashing jewelry" part for you. Independence means the right to choose whatever you want for your alliance. Which Ukraine has the right to do. > And again, I'm not really talking about personal choices (maybe Ukraine did have to go through Second Independence War like USA did), but about the desirability of such scenario to be copied by other countries. I think it should be desirable for other countries to be independent and not subjugated by their bigger neighbours.

thriftwy 3y ago
Of course, nobody was going to give Crimea to them in this case. But they could end up with Medvedchuk and all the remaining regions, some of them in federative state. The thing is, every next option they get is progressively worse. > it should be desirable for other countries to be independent So you are OK with some other people dying so that you have a pleasant feeling about them. Much like when you read in a newspaper how a brave tourist has resisted the thugs who tried to rob him. But the actual good advice to tourists is to stay out of trouble, and if it is already happening, try not to die by complying. Anything that got you in a brawl with local thugs over your fancy camera is bad advice. It's not that I think countries should not be independent and get subjugated by their bigger neighbours. It's just they should find a way to do this in a smart fashion and without full scale war. Ukraine is actually getting subjugated by their bigger neighbour right now. The policy you recommend led to an outcome that you find undesirable. Then you say the policy is not to blame, the outcome could not be avoided in the first place.
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by _kbh_ 3y ago

thriftwy 3y ago

Of course, nobody was going to give Crimea to them in this case. But they could end up with Medvedchuk and all the remaining regions, some of them in federative state. The thing is, every next option they get is progressively worse. > it should be desirable for other countries to be independent So you are OK with some other people dying so that you have a pleasant feeling about them. Much like when you read in a newspaper how a brave tourist has resisted the thugs who tried to rob him. But the actual good advice to tourists is to stay out of trouble, and if it is already happening, try not to die by complying. Anything that got you in a brawl with local thugs over your fancy camera is bad advice. It's not that I think countries should not be independent and get subjugated by their bigger neighbours. It's just they should find a way to do this in a smart fashion and without full scale war. Ukraine is actually getting subjugated by their bigger neighbour right now. The policy you recommend led to an outcome that you find undesirable. Then you say the policy is not to blame, the outcome could not be avoided in the first place.

deleted 3y ago
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