6 ms·

The 'broken windows' theory of crime is tested and seems correct

108 points by robg 18y ago

jbert 18y ago
Does a similar effect apply to code? Perhaps technical debt comes with punitive interest rates, making maintainers add more cruft than they otherwise would. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt
- haasted 18y ago
  It does indeed. Things like amount of unit tests and comments are influenced heavily by this effect. It's elaborated further in The Pragmatic Programmer (http://pragprog.com/titles/tpp/the-pragmatic-programmer http://pragprog.com/titles/tpp/the-pragmatic-programmer), which actually introduced me to the concept some time back.
- xiaoma 18y ago
  I've often wondered about this issue in regards to tax code. Does a massive, labyrinthine system encourage legislators to add still more layers of complexity?
JulianMorrison 18y ago
I read something else into that. You can't be half-hearted, only perfection will do. It isn't enough to repaint the wall, a handful of candy wrappers will undo all your good work. Corollary: litter-precursors (the things that most often get dropped, like cans and cigarette filters) might need to be banned or somehow forced into low-litter forms, their cumulative downside looks like it might be harsh enough to outweigh the property-rights case.
- palish 18y ago
  "... litter-precursors (the things that most often get dropped, like cans and cigarette filters) might need to be banned or somehow forced into low-litter forms ..." It seems more beneficial to keep arbitrary restrictions to a minimum. It's more efficient in the long run to achieve that goal by changing culture, not by introducing legislation.
  - JulianMorrison 18y ago
    The trouble here is that there seems to be feedback - anti-civilized behavior promotes itself. While they haven't looked at cultural side effects, I would expect a behavior's prevalence to influence its acceptability. Where can the loop be interrupted? Probably easiest at the point where no minds are involved, it's merely physical mess. So, aggressive cleaning. But for that to be realistic, the spigot has to be closed a little. Hence, bans on litter precursors.
- quantumhobbit 18y ago
  It is far easier to put garbage cans on streetcorners than change how people behave or ban common packaging.
strlen 18y ago
I wonder how that translates into online communities - both in terms of wrongful behaviour (spiteful and illiterate comments, trolling) and in terms of user experience impacting quality of user generated content (wow lot of user- related buzzwords in the last sentence). An interesting experiment would be a video/music/file sharing site which specifically prohibits (and removes) copyrighted content and one that doesn't -- and how that affects other interactions (e.g. comments, forums).
- robg 18y ago
  I really think there's something to that - broken "windows" in online communities. A wakeup for me was how trolls are dealt with here and comments on other sites. Different communities appear to take on the conditions of their founding and then that DNA spreads as it replicates. However, any mutations along the way left unchecked become cancerous.
  - iigs 18y ago
    Strong agree. Case in point: the politics and automaker bailout stuff that has had more of a pass since the election. Even in the weeks leading up to the election the articles were policed more heavily than now. Not sure it doesn't beat another half dozen articles on BS ruby infighting, though.
  - pg 18y ago
    I'm a big believer in the broken windows theory. I was living in NYC when Giuliani took over. I was also a Reddit user when it was overrun by trolls. It was clear there was a correlation between trolling and other types of badness. That's why News.YC not only bans trolls, but also does things that seem unrelated, like fixing spelling mistakes and typographical abuses in story titles.
    - robg 18y ago
      I like how you've set the example and then folks here have taken it upon themselves to help police things. It really has felt like a community watch. I wonder if the folks at Reddit could have stomped out trollish behavior if they called it out as it developed. Did users try to do so? Or was it like a mob smashing windows every where?
lionhearted 18y ago
Downright scary to me: 13% to 27% of people were willing to steal €5 from a mailbox. In a first world, affluent country.
- dejb 18y ago
  Better to take it than allow it to fall into the hands of some hoodlum/criminal. Seriously I think that would be some people's mindset/excuse. Especially in the 'Broken Window' case.
  - Tichy 18y ago
    If that was the rationale, it would be better to just push it into the mail box completely.
taw 18y ago
This is fascist propaganda not science. Not taking spam ads with you, littering, taking shortcuts etc. don't count as crime in any way, and given the rest of the study I'm inclined to believe that the 5 euro note thing was somehow biased too. In reality enforcement of zero tolerance policies causes a lot more cost and human suffering than whatever it prevents.
alecco 18y ago
Disgusting. * The Economist (more often than not missing the point and failing on preditions.) * No link to original research. * Lack of signs of peer-reviewed research * Missing analysis of opposing view. This isn't science or unbiased journalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows#Critics_of_the_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows#Critics_o...
- ig1 18y ago
  The article was about the research Dr Keizer has just published in Science. How is that research not original or peer reviewed ?
  - alecco 18y ago
    Somehow I missed that paragraph, sorry. My bad. Still... The Economist.. Against graffiti... I don't know.
ChaitanyaSai 18y ago
Reminds of the Just-noticeable-difference concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_noticeable_difference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_noticeable_difference) from psychophysics. If disorder is evaluated as a general aggregate of cleanliness, crime etc. An increased baseline of disorder will mean that any personal transgressions that were perceived as "wrong" before would now be perceived as lesser wrongs in comparison. They probably accounted for this, but is it possible that graffiti is resulting in bikers park elsewhere, implying that it isn't individual behavior that is being modified, but group make-up.
swapspace 18y ago
Apart from HN, another community which has handled trolls quite well is MetaFilter. An interesting paper on MeFi: http://www.noor.bz/pdf/ali-hasan_metafilter.pdf http://www.noor.bz/pdf/ali-hasan_metafilter.pdf [pdf] I wonder how much the $5 joining fee is responsible for that.
snewe 18y ago
Not to be confused with the Broken Window Fallacy: http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm

108 points by robg 18y ago

jbert 18y ago

Does a similar effect apply to code? Perhaps technical debt comes with punitive interest rates, making maintainers add more cruft than they otherwise would. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_debt

haasted 18y ago
It does indeed. Things like amount of unit tests and comments are influenced heavily by this effect. It's elaborated further in The Pragmatic Programmer (http://pragprog.com/titles/tpp/the-pragmatic-programmer http://pragprog.com/titles/tpp/the-pragmatic-programmer), which actually introduced me to the concept some time back.
xiaoma 18y ago
I've often wondered about this issue in regards to tax code. Does a massive, labyrinthine system encourage legislators to add still more layers of complexity?

JulianMorrison 18y ago

I read something else into that. You can't be half-hearted, only perfection will do. It isn't enough to repaint the wall, a handful of candy wrappers will undo all your good work. Corollary: litter-precursors (the things that most often get dropped, like cans and cigarette filters) might need to be banned or somehow forced into low-litter forms, their cumulative downside looks like it might be harsh enough to outweigh the property-rights case.

palish 18y ago
"... litter-precursors (the things that most often get dropped, like cans and cigarette filters) might need to be banned or somehow forced into low-litter forms ..." It seems more beneficial to keep arbitrary restrictions to a minimum. It's more efficient in the long run to achieve that goal by changing culture, not by introducing legislation.
- JulianMorrison 18y ago
  The trouble here is that there seems to be feedback - anti-civilized behavior promotes itself. While they haven't looked at cultural side effects, I would expect a behavior's prevalence to influence its acceptability. Where can the loop be interrupted? Probably easiest at the point where no minds are involved, it's merely physical mess. So, aggressive cleaning. But for that to be realistic, the spigot has to be closed a little. Hence, bans on litter precursors.
quantumhobbit 18y ago
It is far easier to put garbage cans on streetcorners than change how people behave or ban common packaging.

strlen 18y ago

I wonder how that translates into online communities - both in terms of wrongful behaviour (spiteful and illiterate comments, trolling) and in terms of user experience impacting quality of user generated content (wow lot of user- related buzzwords in the last sentence). An interesting experiment would be a video/music/file sharing site which specifically prohibits (and removes) copyrighted content and one that doesn't -- and how that affects other interactions (e.g. comments, forums).

robg 18y ago
I really think there's something to that - broken "windows" in online communities. A wakeup for me was how trolls are dealt with here and comments on other sites. Different communities appear to take on the conditions of their founding and then that DNA spreads as it replicates. However, any mutations along the way left unchecked become cancerous.
- iigs 18y ago
  Strong agree. Case in point: the politics and automaker bailout stuff that has had more of a pass since the election. Even in the weeks leading up to the election the articles were policed more heavily than now. Not sure it doesn't beat another half dozen articles on BS ruby infighting, though.
- pg 18y ago
  I'm a big believer in the broken windows theory. I was living in NYC when Giuliani took over. I was also a Reddit user when it was overrun by trolls. It was clear there was a correlation between trolling and other types of badness. That's why News.YC not only bans trolls, but also does things that seem unrelated, like fixing spelling mistakes and typographical abuses in story titles.
  - robg 18y ago
    I like how you've set the example and then folks here have taken it upon themselves to help police things. It really has felt like a community watch. I wonder if the folks at Reddit could have stomped out trollish behavior if they called it out as it developed. Did users try to do so? Or was it like a mob smashing windows every where?

lionhearted 18y ago

Downright scary to me: 13% to 27% of people were willing to steal €5 from a mailbox. In a first world, affluent country.

dejb 18y ago
Better to take it than allow it to fall into the hands of some hoodlum/criminal. Seriously I think that would be some people's mindset/excuse. Especially in the 'Broken Window' case.
- Tichy 18y ago
  If that was the rationale, it would be better to just push it into the mail box completely.

taw 18y ago

This is fascist propaganda not science. Not taking spam ads with you, littering, taking shortcuts etc. don't count as crime in any way, and given the rest of the study I'm inclined to believe that the 5 euro note thing was somehow biased too. In reality enforcement of zero tolerance policies causes a lot more cost and human suffering than whatever it prevents.

alecco 18y ago

Disgusting. * The Economist (more often than not missing the point and failing on preditions.) * No link to original research. * Lack of signs of peer-reviewed research * Missing analysis of opposing view. This isn't science or unbiased journalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows#Critics_of_the_theory http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixing_Broken_Windows#Critics_o...

ig1 18y ago
The article was about the research Dr Keizer has just published in Science. How is that research not original or peer reviewed ?
- alecco 18y ago
  Somehow I missed that paragraph, sorry. My bad. Still... The Economist.. Against graffiti... I don't know.

ChaitanyaSai 18y ago

Reminds of the Just-noticeable-difference concept (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_noticeable_difference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just_noticeable_difference) from psychophysics. If disorder is evaluated as a general aggregate of cleanliness, crime etc. An increased baseline of disorder will mean that any personal transgressions that were perceived as "wrong" before would now be perceived as lesser wrongs in comparison. They probably accounted for this, but is it possible that graffiti is resulting in bikers park elsewhere, implying that it isn't individual behavior that is being modified, but group make-up.

swapspace 18y ago

Apart from HN, another community which has handled trolls quite well is MetaFilter. An interesting paper on MeFi: http://www.noor.bz/pdf/ali-hasan_metafilter.pdf http://www.noor.bz/pdf/ali-hasan_metafilter.pdf [pdf] I wonder how much the $5 joining fee is responsible for that.

snewe 18y ago

Not to be confused with the Broken Window Fallacy: http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm