4 ms·

I don't follow your logic. You're suggesting that because a store sells things that aren't vegan, then buying anything from them is just as unethical? Cool, gue

I don't follow your logic. You're suggesting that because a store sells things that aren't vegan, then buying anything from them is just as unethical? Cool, guess I'll starve.

Arnt 3y ago
No. I'm suggesting that if you won't buy dead animals from a particular store on ethical grounds, then you also shouldn't buy dead plants from that particular store on the same ethical grounds (with which I may or may not agree). I suggest that because farming plants also involves killing animals (using poison or mechanical means) and it is unreasonable to believe that someone who fails your ethical standard when raising animals for sale will take more care about rats/birds/… when raising plants for sale.
- sverona 3y ago
  The usual counterargument to this specific line of reasoning is outlined in [0]. TL;DR vastly more animals die incidentally in the process of growing feed for livestock than in the process of growing plants for human consumption. The math is very simple; livestock outnumber us dozens to one, and consume comparable amounts of food on average (cattle really drag the mean here.) More generally, you'll always be able to whatabout vegans, because to live is to kill --- it's completely impossible to live in modern society and not harm something somehow. I feel that I'm obligated to do the best I can under the circumstances. [0] https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-throug https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-ki...
  - Arnt 3y ago
    That's certainly a valid argument if your ethical standards are such that it's okay to kill some but not many.
    - sverona 3y ago
      Have you ever heard of something called the trolley problem?
      - Arnt 3y ago
        Yes, and I think I know what you're trying to say. By choosing to buy your food from someone who disregards animal welfare, you're putting yourself in a position where you have to choose whether to kill more or fewer animals, and you liken your resulting problem to the trolley problem. I, on the other hand, wonder what ethical thinking led you to choose to buy from such a company.
        sverona 3y ago
        Name one company that meets your theoretically consistent ethical standard of never killing or harming an animal, even incidentally. I don't think there are any.
        Arnt 3y ago
        I don't have that standard. There are perhaps a hundred food retailers in the city where I live that meet my ethical standards, out of perhaps 1000-2000 in total. My standards for how to treat animals don't depend on whether I eat that animal after it's died. "Can maltreat as long as I don't eat it" is IMO difficult to justify.
        sverona 3y ago
        Okay. My ethical standard is "to exclude — as far as is possible and practicable — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose." You'll note the wiggle room. It's not about being perfect and never contributing to animal harm because that's impossible. It's about doing the best you can in a bad situation.
        Arnt 3y ago

I don't follow your logic. You're suggesting that because a store sells things that aren't vegan, then buying anything from them is just as unethical? Cool, guess I'll starve.

Arnt 3y ago

No. I'm suggesting that if you won't buy dead animals from a particular store on ethical grounds, then you also shouldn't buy dead plants from that particular store on the same ethical grounds (with which I may or may not agree). I suggest that because farming plants also involves killing animals (using poison or mechanical means) and it is unreasonable to believe that someone who fails your ethical standard when raising animals for sale will take more care about rats/birds/… when raising plants for sale.

sverona 3y ago
The usual counterargument to this specific line of reasoning is outlined in [0]. TL;DR vastly more animals die incidentally in the process of growing feed for livestock than in the process of growing plants for human consumption. The math is very simple; livestock outnumber us dozens to one, and consume comparable amounts of food on average (cattle really drag the mean here.) More generally, you'll always be able to whatabout vegans, because to live is to kill --- it's completely impossible to live in modern society and not harm something somehow. I feel that I'm obligated to do the best I can under the circumstances. [0] https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-throug https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-ki...
- Arnt 3y ago
  That's certainly a valid argument if your ethical standards are such that it's okay to kill some but not many.
  - sverona 3y ago
    Have you ever heard of something called the trolley problem?
    - Arnt 3y ago
      Yes, and I think I know what you're trying to say. By choosing to buy your food from someone who disregards animal welfare, you're putting yourself in a position where you have to choose whether to kill more or fewer animals, and you liken your resulting problem to the trolley problem. I, on the other hand, wonder what ethical thinking led you to choose to buy from such a company.
      - sverona 3y ago
        Name one company that meets your theoretically consistent ethical standard of never killing or harming an animal, even incidentally. I don't think there are any.
        Arnt 3y ago
        I don't have that standard. There are perhaps a hundred food retailers in the city where I live that meet my ethical standards, out of perhaps 1000-2000 in total. My standards for how to treat animals don't depend on whether I eat that animal after it's died. "Can maltreat as long as I don't eat it" is IMO difficult to justify.
        sverona 3y ago
        Okay. My ethical standard is "to exclude — as far as is possible and practicable — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose." You'll note the wiggle room. It's not about being perfect and never contributing to animal harm because that's impossible. It's about doing the best you can in a bad situation.
        Arnt 3y ago