6 ms·

If you're running VMs on Mac for a development environment what you want is OrbStack: https://orbstack.dev/ https://orbstack.dev/

by npad 3y ago

kungfufrog 3y ago
Can second this, been loving it since I switched, has been great. VMs and Docker in one!
- avhception 3y ago
  Looks really interesting, I will try to see whether we can benefit from it in our web-dev environments!
- kdrag0n 3y ago
  Great to hear! Quick question for you actually: what's the value prop of having VMs and containers in one? I've been having a hard time with that from a marketing perspective.
  - kungfufrog 3y ago
    Less tools and software to keep up to date!
kdrag0n 3y ago
Thanks for mentioning OrbStack! Happy to answer questions as the dev.
- orbmulti 3y ago
  Hey, I just switched from Linux to MacOS and I wondered how to best set up a work environment on MacOS. I don't really want to use brew as the sandboxing on MacOS seems to be much worse than I expected it to be e.g. as far as I see you can only prevent the access of $HOME/Desktop, $HOME/Documents and $HOME/Downloads. I found out that using Canonical Multipass allows you to easily set up ubuntu VMs and this I think it is a good way to create a working environment for development and of course by using it one can improve the sandboxing as everything is executed inside a vm. ------- Now to come to the point your OrbStack seems to be really similar to Canonical Multipass, so I wondered how they do they compare to each other? Why should I prefer to use OrbStack over Canonical Multipass (besides the possibility of being able to run other distributions than ubuntu)?
- alexellisuk 3y ago
  Is running a MacOS VM within scope of what you want to build?
  - kdrag0n 3y ago
    I don't want to say "never" to macOS or Windows VMs, but so far my plan is to focus on Linux and its applications (containers, Kubernetes, etc.).
- 00deadbeef 3y ago
  I visited your site and don't understand why OrbStack is a thing. It says it's a replacement for Docker Desktop but how is it better?
  - kdrag0n 3y ago
    The docs have more info: https://docs.orbstack.dev/ https://docs.orbstack.dev/ And a comparison: https://docs.orbstack.dev/compare/docker-desktop https://docs.orbstack.dev/compare/docker-desktop I think you'll find something you like in there :) To name a few: Performance, CPU usage/power efficiency, automatic domain names for containers, access to volumes and image files from macOS, native app, and more.
  - jbverschoor 3y ago
    It's a few things: 1) Runs containers / VMs ("linux machines"). Here you get a linux instance with access to your complete filesystem (everything is mounted), similar to I guess WSL 2) Full docker compatible + docker-compose 3) As of this week kubernetes support Everything is blazing fast to start (think 100-200ms). Aside that, there's one thing that's awesome: networking. Every container gets a unique IP. No more portmapping. Every containers also gets a unique hostname (+ip) -> testapp.orb.local Every every docker-compose gets a unique subdomain -> web.testcompose.orb.local
felixgallo 3y ago
Note that the product will be $8 per dev per month for commercial use once beta concludes.
- portaltonowhere 3y ago
  Yup. And given how well it works already and the feature set, I’d say it’ll be well worth the money.
- mrweasel 3y ago
  Why does everything needs to be a subscription? I don't mind paying, but I'm not signing up of yet another subscription.
  - kdrag0n 3y ago
    I get it — subscriptions suck, but I've explained why in the "Why a subscription?" box here: https://docs.orbstack.dev/faq#free https://docs.orbstack.dev/faq#free
    - mrweasel 3y ago
      Fair, I should have found that. Personally I disagree with the "Major version upgrades". To me that what I want, you release a product, I buy it knowing what it contains and what it does. My expectations are that I get security fixes for some period of time, but other than that the "no new features" is a feature all on its own. I might be in the minority, but I'd pay $150 up front, rather than a $8 per month, knowing full well that I might need to pay another $100 the next time macOS is updated. It's not the money as much as it is the mental overhead of yet another subscription. Customers need to be able to keep track of their subscriptions and after four or five that's it, you lose track and the money just disappear out of your account every month. Say that: Well the App Store lists all your subscriptions... is missing the point, because not all of my subscriptions are going to be centrally managed by Apple, Google or some one else. Again, it might just be me, but I believe that companies are losing out on sales because they're not offering straight up purchases. There's just no way to track sales lost because of it, so it's not on anyone's radar. Edit: I checked the pricing on VMWare Fusion, it was release in 2020, it might have been cheaper on release, but let's assume it's not, that's $199 up front, I'd still be able to us it and I'm saving money. I can then upgrade it for $99, but I don't have to, unless I also upgrade my laptop to an M-series. So it's cheaper for me to buy an objectively better product. I might even get a discount if I buy bulk licenses or I'm already a VMWare customer. I get why subscriptions are attractive to the developers, but they provide no value to the customer.
stephenr 3y ago
For a tool tooting its own horn with claims like the one below, the lack of vagrant support is glaring. > No matter the use case, OrbStack has you covered with features that simplify your workflow and help you move faster.
- kdrag0n 3y ago
  There's a feature request for Vagrant support: https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/105 https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/105 Hasn't been that common of a request, and honestly I've never used Vagrant so not familiar with its benefits. People are already using OrbStack machines and its "orb" command to build dev envs with setup scripts, and cloud-init support will also be added: https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/38 https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/38 I think cloud-init will be more useful since it's already widely used for setting up servers, whereas Vagrant is only for dev envs, but correct me if I'm wrong.
  - 00deadbeef 3y ago
    Plenty of companies use Vagrant. OrbStack's pricing is almost as much as an annual Parallels license for each of our devs. Most places using Vagrant will be using VirtualBox on Intel, or Parallels on Apple Silicon. So you haven't seen many requests because Vagrant users already have a solution and OrbStack wouldn't save enough money to ever switch to it.
  - sam_goody 3y ago
    We looked at Orbstack, saw that there is no Vagrant support, and moved on. I'll bet there are many other companies with a similar thought. Orb stack is too young to warrant piling on the tickets, vs just assuming it is immature.
    - kdrag0n 3y ago
      Fair. Another part of it is that I'm more focused on containers at the moment.
  - 3y ago
denkmoon 3y ago
Can I make complex network setups with this? My biggest grievance with UTM is that I can only have 1 network interface on a VM.
- jki275 3y ago
  You can have as many as you like, but you have to pass them as arguments in the VM configuration. It's not intuitive but the instructions are here: https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/issues/2722 https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/issues/2722
- kdrag0n 3y ago
  Can you give an example? OrbStack currently sets up an IPv4+6 interface linked to a "unified bridge" with both the macOS host and other Linux machines on it, plus NAT to the outside world: https://docs.orbstack.dev/machines/network https://docs.orbstack.dev/machines/network You're also free to create your own interfaces on the Linux side, of course.
notpushkin 3y ago
I'd say Lima and Colima should be enough for most use cases: https://lima-vm.io/ https://lima-vm.io/ https://github.com/abiosoft/colima https://github.com/abiosoft/colima

If you're running VMs on Mac for a development environment what you want is OrbStack: https://orbstack.dev/ https://orbstack.dev/

by npad 3y ago

If you're running VMs on Mac for a development environment what you want is OrbStack: https://orbstack.dev/ https://orbstack.dev/

kungfufrog 3y ago

Can second this, been loving it since I switched, has been great. VMs and Docker in one!

avhception 3y ago
Looks really interesting, I will try to see whether we can benefit from it in our web-dev environments!
kdrag0n 3y ago
Great to hear! Quick question for you actually: what's the value prop of having VMs and containers in one? I've been having a hard time with that from a marketing perspective.
- kungfufrog 3y ago
  Less tools and software to keep up to date!

kdrag0n 3y ago

Thanks for mentioning OrbStack! Happy to answer questions as the dev.

orbmulti 3y ago
Hey, I just switched from Linux to MacOS and I wondered how to best set up a work environment on MacOS. I don't really want to use brew as the sandboxing on MacOS seems to be much worse than I expected it to be e.g. as far as I see you can only prevent the access of $HOME/Desktop, $HOME/Documents and $HOME/Downloads. I found out that using Canonical Multipass allows you to easily set up ubuntu VMs and this I think it is a good way to create a working environment for development and of course by using it one can improve the sandboxing as everything is executed inside a vm. ------- Now to come to the point your OrbStack seems to be really similar to Canonical Multipass, so I wondered how they do they compare to each other? Why should I prefer to use OrbStack over Canonical Multipass (besides the possibility of being able to run other distributions than ubuntu)?
alexellisuk 3y ago
Is running a MacOS VM within scope of what you want to build?
- kdrag0n 3y ago
  I don't want to say "never" to macOS or Windows VMs, but so far my plan is to focus on Linux and its applications (containers, Kubernetes, etc.).
00deadbeef 3y ago
I visited your site and don't understand why OrbStack is a thing. It says it's a replacement for Docker Desktop but how is it better?
- kdrag0n 3y ago
  The docs have more info: https://docs.orbstack.dev/ https://docs.orbstack.dev/ And a comparison: https://docs.orbstack.dev/compare/docker-desktop https://docs.orbstack.dev/compare/docker-desktop I think you'll find something you like in there :) To name a few: Performance, CPU usage/power efficiency, automatic domain names for containers, access to volumes and image files from macOS, native app, and more.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  It's a few things: 1) Runs containers / VMs ("linux machines"). Here you get a linux instance with access to your complete filesystem (everything is mounted), similar to I guess WSL 2) Full docker compatible + docker-compose 3) As of this week kubernetes support Everything is blazing fast to start (think 100-200ms). Aside that, there's one thing that's awesome: networking. Every container gets a unique IP. No more portmapping. Every containers also gets a unique hostname (+ip) -> testapp.orb.local Every every docker-compose gets a unique subdomain -> web.testcompose.orb.local

felixgallo 3y ago

Note that the product will be $8 per dev per month for commercial use once beta concludes.

portaltonowhere 3y ago
Yup. And given how well it works already and the feature set, I’d say it’ll be well worth the money.
mrweasel 3y ago
Why does everything needs to be a subscription? I don't mind paying, but I'm not signing up of yet another subscription.
- kdrag0n 3y ago
  I get it — subscriptions suck, but I've explained why in the "Why a subscription?" box here: https://docs.orbstack.dev/faq#free https://docs.orbstack.dev/faq#free
  - mrweasel 3y ago
    Fair, I should have found that. Personally I disagree with the "Major version upgrades". To me that what I want, you release a product, I buy it knowing what it contains and what it does. My expectations are that I get security fixes for some period of time, but other than that the "no new features" is a feature all on its own. I might be in the minority, but I'd pay $150 up front, rather than a $8 per month, knowing full well that I might need to pay another $100 the next time macOS is updated. It's not the money as much as it is the mental overhead of yet another subscription. Customers need to be able to keep track of their subscriptions and after four or five that's it, you lose track and the money just disappear out of your account every month. Say that: Well the App Store lists all your subscriptions... is missing the point, because not all of my subscriptions are going to be centrally managed by Apple, Google or some one else. Again, it might just be me, but I believe that companies are losing out on sales because they're not offering straight up purchases. There's just no way to track sales lost because of it, so it's not on anyone's radar. Edit: I checked the pricing on VMWare Fusion, it was release in 2020, it might have been cheaper on release, but let's assume it's not, that's $199 up front, I'd still be able to us it and I'm saving money. I can then upgrade it for $99, but I don't have to, unless I also upgrade my laptop to an M-series. So it's cheaper for me to buy an objectively better product. I might even get a discount if I buy bulk licenses or I'm already a VMWare customer. I get why subscriptions are attractive to the developers, but they provide no value to the customer.

stephenr 3y ago

For a tool tooting its own horn with claims like the one below, the lack of vagrant support is glaring. > No matter the use case, OrbStack has you covered with features that simplify your workflow and help you move faster.

kdrag0n 3y ago
There's a feature request for Vagrant support: https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/105 https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/105 Hasn't been that common of a request, and honestly I've never used Vagrant so not familiar with its benefits. People are already using OrbStack machines and its "orb" command to build dev envs with setup scripts, and cloud-init support will also be added: https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/38 https://github.com/orbstack/orbstack/issues/38 I think cloud-init will be more useful since it's already widely used for setting up servers, whereas Vagrant is only for dev envs, but correct me if I'm wrong.
- 00deadbeef 3y ago
  Plenty of companies use Vagrant. OrbStack's pricing is almost as much as an annual Parallels license for each of our devs. Most places using Vagrant will be using VirtualBox on Intel, or Parallels on Apple Silicon. So you haven't seen many requests because Vagrant users already have a solution and OrbStack wouldn't save enough money to ever switch to it.
- sam_goody 3y ago
  We looked at Orbstack, saw that there is no Vagrant support, and moved on. I'll bet there are many other companies with a similar thought. Orb stack is too young to warrant piling on the tickets, vs just assuming it is immature.
  - kdrag0n 3y ago
    Fair. Another part of it is that I'm more focused on containers at the moment.
- 3y ago

denkmoon 3y ago

Can I make complex network setups with this? My biggest grievance with UTM is that I can only have 1 network interface on a VM.

jki275 3y ago
You can have as many as you like, but you have to pass them as arguments in the VM configuration. It's not intuitive but the instructions are here: https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/issues/2722 https://github.com/utmapp/UTM/issues/2722
kdrag0n 3y ago
Can you give an example? OrbStack currently sets up an IPv4+6 interface linked to a "unified bridge" with both the macOS host and other Linux machines on it, plus NAT to the outside world: https://docs.orbstack.dev/machines/network https://docs.orbstack.dev/machines/network You're also free to create your own interfaces on the Linux side, of course.

notpushkin 3y ago

I'd say Lima and Colima should be enough for most use cases: https://lima-vm.io/ https://lima-vm.io/ https://github.com/abiosoft/colima https://github.com/abiosoft/colima