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Giving an addictive stimulant to food addicts That'll work greeeeat. Then again if I remember correctly, Vyvanse isn't something you can get a continual high

Giving an addictive stimulant to food addicts That'll work greeeeat. Then again if I remember correctly, Vyvanse isn't something you can get a continual high from like traditional amphetamines. : I may be completely mis-renembering that.

tux3 3y ago
You'll be happy to know it does work great. Contrary to popular belief, giving stimulants significantly reduces the risks of addiction, alcoholism, substance abuse, etc. You have to treat people, otherwise they try to get their dopamine sonewhere else. Whether that's binge eating, or worse.
- qwerty456127 3y ago
  Ideally, people should be given options. Teach them how they can possibly control their concentration and mood, how (what) to eat healthy avoiding deficits and excesses which make that hard, remove anxiety-inducing, depressing and distracting factors then give them the meds to try and let them decide what do they feel like sticking to. Sadly, most of the people don't get any of these things: they are not really taught anything, their works and lives are crazy and unsatisfying and the ADHD meds are either illegal or very hard to get prescribed (especially if you are an adult) outside of the USA. Your point is very interesting though. It sounds pretty obvious but I never thought about this this way. I am going to look some proofs up and steal this for future arguments.
  - astrange 3y ago
    Vyvanse is so safe there's no need to give people "options" instead of it. Especially since non-medical "options" barely work on people with ADHD unless they spend almost all their effort 24/7 on coping.
    - qwerty456127 3y ago
      I once secured a box of Ritalin. It does wonders to me (sadly it was never possible for me to receive legally) but I feel the way I don't quite like once it wears off in some hours. Is Vyvanse better? At the same time as I slowly work on the other options I mentioned I get the sense of meaning, improvement, progress in gaining what will stay with me wherever I go. Practicing and progressing in these feel like the very sense my job makes, otherwise it would feel like "work another month, pay the bills, grow the savings a bit and gain nothing real". So I stick to the options and take the meds sporadically. And I don't quite like the idea of putting ever-increasing stress and suboptimal working and living conditions on people and sort of telling them "just take your meds and work".
      - irdc 3y ago
        Amphetamines like Vyvanse are associated less with the so-called "rebound effect", which sounds like what you're experiencing.
        astrange 3y ago
        It's actually pretty strong for me and I don't even take much. It's better with a secondary nonstimulant medication, but it's happened to me that I'd suddenly not have the willpower to go home from work or would have to nap around 6pm. That said, the nonstimulant ADHD meds all have worse side effects and can't be discontinued without tapering.
    - swader999 3y ago
      I think Ritalin is safest. Vyvanse can have some fairly serious mental side effects: mania, bi polar tendencies: New or worse behavior and thought problems New or worse bipolar illness New or worse psychotic symptoms, such as: Seeing things or hearing voices that are not real Believing things that are not true Being suspicious New or worse manic symptoms. Depression, suicidal thoughts.
      - irdc 3y ago
        And then there are people who hallucinate on methylphenidate (ritalin) and are perfectly fine on amphetamines.
- petesergeant 3y ago
  Don’t people acclimatise to them? Biggest reason I don’t take Vyanse is because I’m worried it’ll stop working (like modafinil did) but leave me addicted to it
  - astrange 3y ago
    Modafinil is not known to develop tolerance. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032706000115 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01650...) Vyvanse does, but it's not a problem, just take a magnesium supplement if it happens.
    - ladzoppelin 3y ago
      Magnesium glycinate Nattokinase Bromelain NAC fish oil
      - astrange 3y ago
        First I've heard of nattokinase and it doesn't have relevant evidence on examine.com. Natto is a good source of vitamin K though, if you want stronger bones.
      - TheHumanist 3y ago
        Would you share the reasoning for each of these? Never heard of taking anything to help ward off Terrance of ADHD med
  - irdc 3y ago
    Sure, you're going to feel like crap for a week or so if you stop Vyvanse after taking it for a while (I know I did). But since a therapeutical dose is nowhere near a recreational one, the risk of developing a craving for it (which is really what addiction is all about) is low. Heck, I've had more problems weaning myself off of diclofenac.
    - TheHumanist 3y ago
      Long part of my life on Adderall and decent amount on Vyvanse at one point and never noticed any actual addictive cravings, like you mention. Sure, when I stop I feel kinda crappy... But... I'm not on a stimulant that I had been on. I'm just not as 'up'. Not as focused. Etc. Never any actual withdrawals or cravings for either though. Gets very tiring how many people that probably never have regularly used either like to pull out their megaphones and yell about how they are addictive. Why don't we worry about ultra processed foods, high sugar intake... Things like that that are actually a problem for a LOT of people? People focus on the oddest things.
- zolland 3y ago
  I think to an extent this is essentially just redirecting the preexisting addiction (edit: remove issues) onto a drug that simply produces normative behavior, specifically behavior that conforms with modern society's idea of a highly productive and obedient individual. For those that aren't already addicted to something, say those with adhd, I wonder to what extent their environment is causing the issues that they seek to solve with a stimulant.
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    Well I am all for legalisation in general, but replacing illegal drugs with legal drugs other than doing something that is acceptable for the society, being the illegal drugs non-accepted, it would also mean that you aren't going to fund drug cartels, ghettos, traffickers, or in general you're not going to end up in a morgue with fentanyl, so for me, in modern context, that's still a big win
  - framapotari 3y ago
    Without medication, I feel much less in control of my mind. It's like I'm in a mind-fog; every long-term thought is blurry and vague so everything tends to become about the short-term. I know that eating this sugary garbage is bad for me but the immediate dopamine gratification massively outweighs that knowledge. Same with tasks I know I need to complete. I know that doing them is the correct thing to do and that procrastinating on them will not be beneficial for me overall, but I just can't "see" that future in my mind. I don't think this is caused by my environment. Feeling like you are unable to think a clear thought is not because clear thoughts conform with modern society's ideas of a highly productive an obedient individual. For me it's simply a feeling of not being a whole human. Medication addresses this to a very significant degree, although it's by no means a complete fix. I also use glasses, and I find similarities there. Without them my eyesight is blurry and I cannot see things beyond a very short distance. Are glasses simply producing normative behavior that conforms with modern society's idea of a highly productive and obedient individual? Is it really the environment that is causing me to think of bad eyesight as an issue to be addressed? Obviously not; being able to see clearly is something you want regardless of environment. I think that the same applies to being able to think clearly.
irdc 3y ago
The danger of pharmaceutical-grade amphetamines at therapeutic doses is vastly overstated. It’s not like it’s alcohol (carcinogenic) or sugar.
- hombre_fatal 3y ago
  I don’t think it’s overstated. It’s just one of those things where some people can’t handle it and end up in a serious downward spiral but others stick to therapeutic use that positively changes their whole life, so the latter group always has to prove they’re not in the former group. Everyone I knew in uni was on Adderall XR and some people overdid it, like making these crazy manic posts on Facebook and staying cracked out for days on a train of big redoses. There are real risks. And because of that, any time I go to a new doctor, I have to deal with them side eyeing me as I try to prove to them I’m not just a pill seeking junkie even though I’ve been taking it for 15 years. It can be so dehumanizing, like I’m a child of a parent that goes to see if I really did clean my room like I said I did.
  - CommitSyn 3y ago
    I used to be in the former group. I'd take. 120-200mg/day to program and "get stuff done" (hundreds of unfinished programs) Thankfully a decade later and I'm in the latter, typically don't take my full dose so I always have some left come next refill.
TheHumanist 3y ago
I've used vyvanse before for a good amount of time and had no addictive issues with it? Same with Adderall. Could just not take them for days or weeks with zero issue, and I'm someone that had teetered on the edge of addiction with other substances in the past. So, I think this could be helpful to people with BED
hombre_fatal 3y ago
Vyvanse is basically the same thing as normal extended release amphetamine except it lasts longer with a gentler up down curve. So you can abuse it the same way. It just lasts longer. The continual high you can get on a large dose is the same, just less peaky. > Giving an addictive stimulant to food addicts Yeah, amphetamine has so many effects beyond appetite suppression that it’s a pretty blunt instrument for that. GLP1 agonists like Ozempic seem far more promising since they don’t have the ability to crack you out.

tux3 3y ago

You'll be happy to know it does work great. Contrary to popular belief, giving stimulants significantly reduces the risks of addiction, alcoholism, substance abuse, etc. You have to treat people, otherwise they try to get their dopamine sonewhere else. Whether that's binge eating, or worse.

qwerty456127 3y ago
Ideally, people should be given options. Teach them how they can possibly control their concentration and mood, how (what) to eat healthy avoiding deficits and excesses which make that hard, remove anxiety-inducing, depressing and distracting factors then give them the meds to try and let them decide what do they feel like sticking to. Sadly, most of the people don't get any of these things: they are not really taught anything, their works and lives are crazy and unsatisfying and the ADHD meds are either illegal or very hard to get prescribed (especially if you are an adult) outside of the USA. Your point is very interesting though. It sounds pretty obvious but I never thought about this this way. I am going to look some proofs up and steal this for future arguments.
- astrange 3y ago
  Vyvanse is so safe there's no need to give people "options" instead of it. Especially since non-medical "options" barely work on people with ADHD unless they spend almost all their effort 24/7 on coping.
  - qwerty456127 3y ago
    I once secured a box of Ritalin. It does wonders to me (sadly it was never possible for me to receive legally) but I feel the way I don't quite like once it wears off in some hours. Is Vyvanse better? At the same time as I slowly work on the other options I mentioned I get the sense of meaning, improvement, progress in gaining what will stay with me wherever I go. Practicing and progressing in these feel like the very sense my job makes, otherwise it would feel like "work another month, pay the bills, grow the savings a bit and gain nothing real". So I stick to the options and take the meds sporadically. And I don't quite like the idea of putting ever-increasing stress and suboptimal working and living conditions on people and sort of telling them "just take your meds and work".
    - irdc 3y ago
      Amphetamines like Vyvanse are associated less with the so-called "rebound effect", which sounds like what you're experiencing.
      - astrange 3y ago
        It's actually pretty strong for me and I don't even take much. It's better with a secondary nonstimulant medication, but it's happened to me that I'd suddenly not have the willpower to go home from work or would have to nap around 6pm. That said, the nonstimulant ADHD meds all have worse side effects and can't be discontinued without tapering.
  - swader999 3y ago
    I think Ritalin is safest. Vyvanse can have some fairly serious mental side effects: mania, bi polar tendencies: New or worse behavior and thought problems New or worse bipolar illness New or worse psychotic symptoms, such as: Seeing things or hearing voices that are not real Believing things that are not true Being suspicious New or worse manic symptoms. Depression, suicidal thoughts.
    - irdc 3y ago
      And then there are people who hallucinate on methylphenidate (ritalin) and are perfectly fine on amphetamines.
petesergeant 3y ago
Don’t people acclimatise to them? Biggest reason I don’t take Vyanse is because I’m worried it’ll stop working (like modafinil did) but leave me addicted to it
- astrange 3y ago
  Modafinil is not known to develop tolerance. (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0165032706000115 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01650...) Vyvanse does, but it's not a problem, just take a magnesium supplement if it happens.
  - ladzoppelin 3y ago
    Magnesium glycinate Nattokinase Bromelain NAC fish oil
    - astrange 3y ago
      First I've heard of nattokinase and it doesn't have relevant evidence on examine.com. Natto is a good source of vitamin K though, if you want stronger bones.
    - TheHumanist 3y ago
      Would you share the reasoning for each of these? Never heard of taking anything to help ward off Terrance of ADHD med
- irdc 3y ago
  Sure, you're going to feel like crap for a week or so if you stop Vyvanse after taking it for a while (I know I did). But since a therapeutical dose is nowhere near a recreational one, the risk of developing a craving for it (which is really what addiction is all about) is low. Heck, I've had more problems weaning myself off of diclofenac.
  - TheHumanist 3y ago
    Long part of my life on Adderall and decent amount on Vyvanse at one point and never noticed any actual addictive cravings, like you mention. Sure, when I stop I feel kinda crappy... But... I'm not on a stimulant that I had been on. I'm just not as 'up'. Not as focused. Etc. Never any actual withdrawals or cravings for either though. Gets very tiring how many people that probably never have regularly used either like to pull out their megaphones and yell about how they are addictive. Why don't we worry about ultra processed foods, high sugar intake... Things like that that are actually a problem for a LOT of people? People focus on the oddest things.
zolland 3y ago
I think to an extent this is essentially just redirecting the preexisting addiction (edit: remove issues) onto a drug that simply produces normative behavior, specifically behavior that conforms with modern society's idea of a highly productive and obedient individual. For those that aren't already addicted to something, say those with adhd, I wonder to what extent their environment is causing the issues that they seek to solve with a stimulant.
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  Well I am all for legalisation in general, but replacing illegal drugs with legal drugs other than doing something that is acceptable for the society, being the illegal drugs non-accepted, it would also mean that you aren't going to fund drug cartels, ghettos, traffickers, or in general you're not going to end up in a morgue with fentanyl, so for me, in modern context, that's still a big win
- framapotari 3y ago
  Without medication, I feel much less in control of my mind. It's like I'm in a mind-fog; every long-term thought is blurry and vague so everything tends to become about the short-term. I know that eating this sugary garbage is bad for me but the immediate dopamine gratification massively outweighs that knowledge. Same with tasks I know I need to complete. I know that doing them is the correct thing to do and that procrastinating on them will not be beneficial for me overall, but I just can't "see" that future in my mind. I don't think this is caused by my environment. Feeling like you are unable to think a clear thought is not because clear thoughts conform with modern society's ideas of a highly productive an obedient individual. For me it's simply a feeling of not being a whole human. Medication addresses this to a very significant degree, although it's by no means a complete fix. I also use glasses, and I find similarities there. Without them my eyesight is blurry and I cannot see things beyond a very short distance. Are glasses simply producing normative behavior that conforms with modern society's idea of a highly productive and obedient individual? Is it really the environment that is causing me to think of bad eyesight as an issue to be addressed? Obviously not; being able to see clearly is something you want regardless of environment. I think that the same applies to being able to think clearly.

irdc 3y ago

The danger of pharmaceutical-grade amphetamines at therapeutic doses is vastly overstated. It’s not like it’s alcohol (carcinogenic) or sugar.

hombre_fatal 3y ago
I don’t think it’s overstated. It’s just one of those things where some people can’t handle it and end up in a serious downward spiral but others stick to therapeutic use that positively changes their whole life, so the latter group always has to prove they’re not in the former group. Everyone I knew in uni was on Adderall XR and some people overdid it, like making these crazy manic posts on Facebook and staying cracked out for days on a train of big redoses. There are real risks. And because of that, any time I go to a new doctor, I have to deal with them side eyeing me as I try to prove to them I’m not just a pill seeking junkie even though I’ve been taking it for 15 years. It can be so dehumanizing, like I’m a child of a parent that goes to see if I really did clean my room like I said I did.
- CommitSyn 3y ago
  I used to be in the former group. I'd take. 120-200mg/day to program and "get stuff done" (hundreds of unfinished programs) Thankfully a decade later and I'm in the latter, typically don't take my full dose so I always have some left come next refill.

TheHumanist 3y ago

I've used vyvanse before for a good amount of time and had no addictive issues with it? Same with Adderall. Could just not take them for days or weeks with zero issue, and I'm someone that had teetered on the edge of addiction with other substances in the past. So, I think this could be helpful to people with BED

hombre_fatal 3y ago

Vyvanse is basically the same thing as normal extended release amphetamine except it lasts longer with a gentler up down curve. So you can abuse it the same way. It just lasts longer. The continual high you can get on a large dose is the same, just less peaky. > Giving an addictive stimulant to food addicts Yeah, amphetamine has so many effects beyond appetite suppression that it’s a pretty blunt instrument for that. GLP1 agonists like Ozempic seem far more promising since they don’t have the ability to crack you out.