3 ms·

The point isn't that it's first and last, it's to avoid an implicit assumption that they are in a particular order. That semantic correspondence is exactly wha

The point isn't that it's first and last, it's to avoid an implicit assumption that they are in a particular order. That semantic correspondence is exactly what changing to given/family is supposed to preserve. Yes, there are people with only one. There is/was a fairly well-known example in UK network infrastructure circles. That's a problem in either system if you make the fields required. Given/family removes ambiguity for a larger number of humans than first/last, but you're always going to run into something from the Falsehoods Programmers Believe About Names list so unless you can get away with just a single "name" field (and you can't always) it's the better option of the two.

lelanthran 3y ago
> Given/family removes ambiguity for a larger number of humans than first/last, I dunno. The former places the cognitive load on the user. The latter places no additional cognitive load on either party. After all, what exactly do you mean by "Family Name" and how sure are you that meaning you have is shared by even a significant minority of cultures and people? How many countries have passports that label each name in the name field as a "given" name or a "family name"? How many countries have their revenue service care about whether a "given" name is to be used or a "family" name? OTOH, to figure out which name is first and which name is last, all the user has to do is look at their ID, which they have presumably seen thousands of times already. First/last at least has the benefit that, to the user filling in the form, they don't have to think about it - the first name on the ID goes first, the last name on their ID goes last. They can leave out anything in the middle because the form didn't ask them for it! The problem isn't the NAME, the problem is the addressing of that person which can be only be solved by by adding a field for addressing, and where it can't be solved (titles, honorifics, etc), then given/family name won't solve it either.
- mediumdeviation 3y ago
  > I dunno. The former places the cognitive load on the user. The latter places no additional cognitive load on either party. It adds cognitive load because I've not seen a system where first/last name is not a synonym for given/family name, except it also indicates the system designer is not aware of alternative ordering for names and is forcing me to decide between correct order/incorrect semantic vs. incorrect order/correct semantic, so it's always a game of guessing what the system will subsequently try to display my name as if I enter it in a certain way.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    You don't have to guess. There's an ordering of your names on your ID. Use that. I'd be surprised if if is different to the one used by your country's revenue service. If the taxman in your country both knows who you are and has a name for you, that's the correct name, regardless of whether unspoken rules about given/family/calling names exist or not.
zarzavat 3y ago
The original sin is assuming that names have a particular structure. But at least First/Last places the burden of that sin not on the user. My partner has only given names. When forms ask for their “Family name”, my internal thought process goes like this: 1. WTF do I write here? 2. Why are they asking for Family name? Oh they are probably just Anglophone and assume this is how names are. 3. It’s okay, just lie on the form then. Then I choose their final given name and write it in the family name field. This kind of enforced microdishonesty grates on the user over time. It certainly makes me grumpy! First and last name is better because it’s not imposing a structure that may not exist. The burden of that false structure goes on the service rather than the user.
- numpad0 3y ago
  First and last is worse because having first name registered as family name adds extra half a day to your schedule to be spent around support desk, and given/family nomenclature exists because it's just unnecessary pain. Your partner and billion others from their cultural sphere with single-field name system is a testament that concatenated two-field name system is the problem and is actually not working due to the falsehoods, not that the first/last nomenclature is better than given/family which is much less ambiguous.
  - regularfry 3y ago
    Yes, this. Given/family may be bad, but first/last is so much worse.
- melagonster 3y ago
  unfortunately, I need to remember which one of first and last name is family name... I always directly search.

lelanthran 3y ago

> Given/family removes ambiguity for a larger number of humans than first/last, I dunno. The former places the cognitive load on the user. The latter places no additional cognitive load on either party. After all, what exactly do you mean by "Family Name" and how sure are you that meaning you have is shared by even a significant minority of cultures and people? How many countries have passports that label each name in the name field as a "given" name or a "family name"? How many countries have their revenue service care about whether a "given" name is to be used or a "family" name? OTOH, to figure out which name is first and which name is last, all the user has to do is look at their ID, which they have presumably seen thousands of times already. First/last at least has the benefit that, to the user filling in the form, they don't have to think about it - the first name on the ID goes first, the last name on their ID goes last. They can leave out anything in the middle because the form didn't ask them for it! The problem isn't the NAME, the problem is the addressing of that person which can be only be solved by by adding a field for addressing, and where it can't be solved (titles, honorifics, etc), then given/family name won't solve it either.

mediumdeviation 3y ago
> I dunno. The former places the cognitive load on the user. The latter places no additional cognitive load on either party. It adds cognitive load because I've not seen a system where first/last name is not a synonym for given/family name, except it also indicates the system designer is not aware of alternative ordering for names and is forcing me to decide between correct order/incorrect semantic vs. incorrect order/correct semantic, so it's always a game of guessing what the system will subsequently try to display my name as if I enter it in a certain way.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  You don't have to guess. There's an ordering of your names on your ID. Use that. I'd be surprised if if is different to the one used by your country's revenue service. If the taxman in your country both knows who you are and has a name for you, that's the correct name, regardless of whether unspoken rules about given/family/calling names exist or not.

zarzavat 3y ago

The original sin is assuming that names have a particular structure. But at least First/Last places the burden of that sin not on the user. My partner has only given names. When forms ask for their “Family name”, my internal thought process goes like this: 1. WTF do I write here? 2. Why are they asking for Family name? Oh they are probably just Anglophone and assume this is how names are. 3. It’s okay, just lie on the form then. Then I choose their final given name and write it in the family name field. This kind of enforced microdishonesty grates on the user over time. It certainly makes me grumpy! First and last name is better because it’s not imposing a structure that may not exist. The burden of that false structure goes on the service rather than the user.

numpad0 3y ago
First and last is worse because having first name registered as family name adds extra half a day to your schedule to be spent around support desk, and given/family nomenclature exists because it's just unnecessary pain. Your partner and billion others from their cultural sphere with single-field name system is a testament that concatenated two-field name system is the problem and is actually not working due to the falsehoods, not that the first/last nomenclature is better than given/family which is much less ambiguous.
- regularfry 3y ago
  Yes, this. Given/family may be bad, but first/last is so much worse.
melagonster 3y ago
unfortunately, I need to remember which one of first and last name is family name... I always directly search.