6 ms·

any thoughts on evs as a missallocation of battery capacity when it should go to houses with solar arrays instead?

XorNot 3y ago
It would be a complete and utter waste of money which would be a net loss at best over about a 40 year period. It's not hard to calculate the economics of batteries for residential solar (I've done it repeatedly), but I can save you some time: it's pointless. Because if it was viable, then it would cheaper and more efficient for utility companies to build their own grid batteries (which they do: but not for long-term energy storage, they use it for grid stability). The price you pay for off-peak power, will always be slightly less the minimum cost of battery ownership. Because if batteries were cheaper to own, then you would get that price via your electricity bill anyway.
_3u10 3y ago
1. It’s not your resource to allocate. 2. The grid mostly doesn’t care how far the battery is from the panel. 3. Lithium ion is an incredibly inefficient means of storing power that doesn’t have to be portable. Grid storage doesn’t use Li ion because it isn’t cost effective. In summary the major misallocation of resources is using lithium batteries to store grid power at all. At home solar is the next Great Leap Forward for humanity. It's about as logical as making steel at home. In case you didn't get the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward
- steppi 3y ago
  I’m with you on the inefficiency of wide-scale at home solar and your three list items but don’t understand the connection to the Great Leap Forward unless you’re just saying they’re both bad and involved (or would likely involve) ill-calculated intervention and mis-allocation. If anything I think the right analogy is that home solar is to small scale private farming as large solar farms are to large scale agriculture. I think a modern Great Leap Forward more worthy of the name would be an aggressive failed attempt to build massive solar farms and dismantle home solar systems through forced labor after home solar had already achieved ubiquity.
  - _3u10 3y ago
    Chances are your house is not the ideal location for a solar panel.
saturn_vk 3y ago
Why would stationary installations use lithium batteries when there are cheaper, heavier alternatives?
- Ekaros 3y ago
  In stationary scenarios some aspects really don't matter. Mass, doesn't really matter unless we are over what single truck can deliver or can be installed at time. Meaning tens of tons. Volume, some limits, but still I think few cubic meters is in reasonable space. Compare to oil and gas. Cost per kwh and cycles is the important ones. They should result in less than grid costs. Also I would consider safety to be important. Is there risk of fire? In event of fire does it keep burning? Does if off gas something toxic that stays also after? Etc.

It would be a complete and utter waste of money which would be a net loss at best over about a 40 year period. It's not hard to calculate the economics of batteries for residential solar (I've done it repeatedly), but I can save you some time: it's pointless. Because if it was viable, then it would cheaper and more efficient for utility companies to build their own grid batteries (which they do: but not for long-term energy storage, they use it for grid stability). The price you pay for off-peak power, will always be slightly less the minimum cost of battery ownership. Because if batteries were cheaper to own, then you would get that price via your electricity bill anyway.

_3u10 3y ago

1. It’s not your resource to allocate. 2. The grid mostly doesn’t care how far the battery is from the panel. 3. Lithium ion is an incredibly inefficient means of storing power that doesn’t have to be portable. Grid storage doesn’t use Li ion because it isn’t cost effective. In summary the major misallocation of resources is using lithium batteries to store grid power at all. At home solar is the next Great Leap Forward for humanity. It's about as logical as making steel at home. In case you didn't get the reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

steppi 3y ago
I’m with you on the inefficiency of wide-scale at home solar and your three list items but don’t understand the connection to the Great Leap Forward unless you’re just saying they’re both bad and involved (or would likely involve) ill-calculated intervention and mis-allocation. If anything I think the right analogy is that home solar is to small scale private farming as large solar farms are to large scale agriculture. I think a modern Great Leap Forward more worthy of the name would be an aggressive failed attempt to build massive solar farms and dismantle home solar systems through forced labor after home solar had already achieved ubiquity.
- _3u10 3y ago
  Chances are your house is not the ideal location for a solar panel.

saturn_vk 3y ago

Why would stationary installations use lithium batteries when there are cheaper, heavier alternatives?

Ekaros 3y ago
In stationary scenarios some aspects really don't matter. Mass, doesn't really matter unless we are over what single truck can deliver or can be installed at time. Meaning tens of tons. Volume, some limits, but still I think few cubic meters is in reasonable space. Compare to oil and gas. Cost per kwh and cycles is the important ones. They should result in less than grid costs. Also I would consider safety to be important. Is there risk of fire? In event of fire does it keep burning? Does if off gas something toxic that stays also after? Etc.