4 ms·

Exactly, we have moral agency and we should do what’s right. Most of us in the ‘modern’ world don’t need meat to survive, so why torture and kill billions of s

Exactly, we have moral agency and we should do what’s right. Most of us in the ‘modern’ world don’t need meat to survive, so why torture and kill billions of sentient beings, destroy habitat & biodiversity and pollute our biosphere so we can enjoy a burger and some cheese? It’s totally irrational.

Arnt 3y ago
You have two options, then. ① Switch to vegan food from the same shop, and avoid thinking about the animals being poisoned or shredded at the factory farms in order to preserve the giant monocultures. You don't really believe that the same cut-price vendors that treat the slaughtered animals so badly will treat other animals well, do you? Or ② switch shops.
- uxcolumbo 3y ago
  Veganism is about reducing the exploitation and killing of animals as much and as practicably as possible. Veganism is pragmatic not dogmatic. Using your line of reasoning, meat eaters are responsible for even more animal deaths, i.e. collateral deaths from current plant farming methods plus the killing of farm animals for your consumption. This line of reasoning seems to be an easy cop out, i.e. I won't be able to go 100% vegan, so why try. Imagine if people would reduce their meat & dairy consumption by 50%, 80% - it would make a huge difference to our biosphere. And then gradually reduce it to almost 0%. It's the future ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS7NRtEJBcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS7NRtEJBcA
- sverona 3y ago
  I don't follow your logic. You're suggesting that because a store sells things that aren't vegan, then buying anything from them is just as unethical? Cool, guess I'll starve.
  - Arnt 3y ago
    No. I'm suggesting that if you won't buy dead animals from a particular store on ethical grounds, then you also shouldn't buy dead plants from that particular store on the same ethical grounds (with which I may or may not agree). I suggest that because farming plants also involves killing animals (using poison or mechanical means) and it is unreasonable to believe that someone who fails your ethical standard when raising animals for sale will take more care about rats/birds/… when raising plants for sale.
    - sverona 3y ago
      The usual counterargument to this specific line of reasoning is outlined in [0]. TL;DR vastly more animals die incidentally in the process of growing feed for livestock than in the process of growing plants for human consumption. The math is very simple; livestock outnumber us dozens to one, and consume comparable amounts of food on average (cattle really drag the mean here.) More generally, you'll always be able to whatabout vegans, because to live is to kill --- it's completely impossible to live in modern society and not harm something somehow. I feel that I'm obligated to do the best I can under the circumstances. [0] https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-throug https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-ki...
      - Arnt 3y ago
        That's certainly a valid argument if your ethical standards are such that it's okay to kill some but not many.
        sverona 3y ago
        Have you ever heard of something called the trolley problem?
        Arnt 3y ago
        Yes, and I think I know what you're trying to say. By choosing to buy your food from someone who disregards animal welfare, you're putting yourself in a position where you have to choose whether to kill more or fewer animals, and you liken your resulting problem to the trolley problem. I, on the other hand, wonder what ethical thinking led you to choose to buy from such a company.

Arnt 3y ago

You have two options, then. ① Switch to vegan food from the same shop, and avoid thinking about the animals being poisoned or shredded at the factory farms in order to preserve the giant monocultures. You don't really believe that the same cut-price vendors that treat the slaughtered animals so badly will treat other animals well, do you? Or ② switch shops.

uxcolumbo 3y ago
Veganism is about reducing the exploitation and killing of animals as much and as practicably as possible. Veganism is pragmatic not dogmatic. Using your line of reasoning, meat eaters are responsible for even more animal deaths, i.e. collateral deaths from current plant farming methods plus the killing of farm animals for your consumption. This line of reasoning seems to be an easy cop out, i.e. I won't be able to go 100% vegan, so why try. Imagine if people would reduce their meat & dairy consumption by 50%, 80% - it would make a huge difference to our biosphere. And then gradually reduce it to almost 0%. It's the future ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS7NRtEJBcA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sS7NRtEJBcA
sverona 3y ago
I don't follow your logic. You're suggesting that because a store sells things that aren't vegan, then buying anything from them is just as unethical? Cool, guess I'll starve.
- Arnt 3y ago
  No. I'm suggesting that if you won't buy dead animals from a particular store on ethical grounds, then you also shouldn't buy dead plants from that particular store on the same ethical grounds (with which I may or may not agree). I suggest that because farming plants also involves killing animals (using poison or mechanical means) and it is unreasonable to believe that someone who fails your ethical standard when raising animals for sale will take more care about rats/birds/… when raising plants for sale.
  - sverona 3y ago
    The usual counterargument to this specific line of reasoning is outlined in [0]. TL;DR vastly more animals die incidentally in the process of growing feed for livestock than in the process of growing plants for human consumption. The math is very simple; livestock outnumber us dozens to one, and consume comparable amounts of food on average (cattle really drag the mean here.) More generally, you'll always be able to whatabout vegans, because to live is to kill --- it's completely impossible to live in modern society and not harm something somehow. I feel that I'm obligated to do the best I can under the circumstances. [0] https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-kill-more-animals-throug https://www.surgeactivism.org/articles/debunked-do-vegans-ki...
    - Arnt 3y ago
      That's certainly a valid argument if your ethical standards are such that it's okay to kill some but not many.
      - sverona 3y ago
        Have you ever heard of something called the trolley problem?
        Arnt 3y ago
        Yes, and I think I know what you're trying to say. By choosing to buy your food from someone who disregards animal welfare, you're putting yourself in a position where you have to choose whether to kill more or fewer animals, and you liken your resulting problem to the trolley problem. I, on the other hand, wonder what ethical thinking led you to choose to buy from such a company.