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> Go to any govt office: the chief of some division is incompetent, some low-level clerk does the heavy lifting. For the majority of the time since 1947, it wa

by yedava 3y ago

> Go to any govt office: the chief of some division is incompetent, some low-level clerk does the heavy lifting. For the majority of the time since 1947, it was the non-reserved "competent" class of people who were in charge of government institutions. Even today, I can easily walk into a government office and find some "competent" class officer whose only interest is in milking as much money as he can out of the citizenry. So what gives?

raincom 3y ago
Corruption is NOT confined to one class, one caste, one set (random vs. non-random), one alumni association, one group (competent vs. incompetent). This issue is orthogonal to competence: one can be corrupt irrespective of competence. People recruited in state services (just like UPSC) are promoted to IAS/IPS. When these promoted IAS/IPS officers want postings as district magistrates (collectors) or superintendents of police for districts, the chief secretary or the DGP want bribes; otherwise, they are posted in loop-line (like special project director for land acquisition or railways SP). Add this to sycophancy in India: this sycophancy is there since Islam Rule, then continued into British Raj, now post-Independence India. Every subordinate officer, while treating his/her subordinates as trash, salutes his/her superior. Sycophancy and corruption are deeply related, and collusion between bureaucracy and politicians adds flavor to this mix.
- yedava 3y ago
  My point is why the enormous amount of energy directed at reservations when there are mountains of evidence that corruption is several orders of magnitude more destructive? It's an elephant vs an ant in the room thing. You ignore the elephant and think the ant is causing systemic malaise. Why is that? Is it because Hindu dharma dictates that certain classes are meant to do certain jobs? Like a person availing reservation is born stupid - because of bad karma from a past life - and so can never learn how to do administrative work competently?
  - raincom 3y ago
    Both incompetence and corruption need to be fixed. Incompetence from the rationality perspective [1], corruption from the systems perspective. Just because some book says "people from X varna should do certain job", who is enforcing it? Now you can say that Brahmins haven't taught Vedas to non-brahmins. Come on, who wants to recite Vedas today? History showed us that many Sudra kings ruled; what does it show? That one's favorite text is not binding; or, no one is enforcing what the text says; or, human actions are not instantiations of beliefs, which are textual; etc. [1] https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2015/sep/11/Indian-View-from-Outside-Quotas-Rational--Moral-812953.html https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2015/sep/11/Indian...
    - yedava 3y ago
      > Just because some book says "people from X varna should do certain job", who is enforcing it? Hindu dharma is not driven by any particular book, but is simply the dominant sociopolitical system in the Indian sub-continent. A political system with a tiny elite controlling the rest is inherently unstable (think monarchies or communism) whereas a political system which distributes its elites tends to be stable. That is what the caste system is. Each jati had its own ruling body and social structure. And then there were broader rules which governed how jatis interact, which is where the varnas come in. Now how do you maintain this political system if people are free to leave a jati or intermarry with another jati willy-nilly? You can't. That is why caste endogamy is so strictly enforced (and often violently) in the sub-continent. And the endogamy dates back to like from 2000 years ago. This socio-political system is so fundamental a building block of the sub-contient that even Muslims and Christians follow it unlike in other parts of the world. The other problem to solve in this jati system is that how do you keep some jati doing the dirty or undesirable jobs? This is where the concept of karma comes in. Some people can get away with murder because that's just how the universe works. They will get their just desserts in the next life. Given all that, people who grow up in such a culture carry some biases pretty strongly. Like if a guy gets into medical college due to reservation, but earns the degree like everyone else in his class - by you know completing all the course requirements - he is still not qualified to treat people. The bad karma sticks around. That is how the enforcement works. The cultural beliefs do it.

by yedava 3y ago

raincom 3y ago

Corruption is NOT confined to one class, one caste, one set (random vs. non-random), one alumni association, one group (competent vs. incompetent). This issue is orthogonal to competence: one can be corrupt irrespective of competence. People recruited in state services (just like UPSC) are promoted to IAS/IPS. When these promoted IAS/IPS officers want postings as district magistrates (collectors) or superintendents of police for districts, the chief secretary or the DGP want bribes; otherwise, they are posted in loop-line (like special project director for land acquisition or railways SP). Add this to sycophancy in India: this sycophancy is there since Islam Rule, then continued into British Raj, now post-Independence India. Every subordinate officer, while treating his/her subordinates as trash, salutes his/her superior. Sycophancy and corruption are deeply related, and collusion between bureaucracy and politicians adds flavor to this mix.

yedava 3y ago
My point is why the enormous amount of energy directed at reservations when there are mountains of evidence that corruption is several orders of magnitude more destructive? It's an elephant vs an ant in the room thing. You ignore the elephant and think the ant is causing systemic malaise. Why is that? Is it because Hindu dharma dictates that certain classes are meant to do certain jobs? Like a person availing reservation is born stupid - because of bad karma from a past life - and so can never learn how to do administrative work competently?
- raincom 3y ago
  Both incompetence and corruption need to be fixed. Incompetence from the rationality perspective [1], corruption from the systems perspective. Just because some book says "people from X varna should do certain job", who is enforcing it? Now you can say that Brahmins haven't taught Vedas to non-brahmins. Come on, who wants to recite Vedas today? History showed us that many Sudra kings ruled; what does it show? That one's favorite text is not binding; or, no one is enforcing what the text says; or, human actions are not instantiations of beliefs, which are textual; etc. [1] https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2015/sep/11/Indian-View-from-Outside-Quotas-Rational--Moral-812953.html https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinions/2015/sep/11/Indian...
  - yedava 3y ago
    > Just because some book says "people from X varna should do certain job", who is enforcing it? Hindu dharma is not driven by any particular book, but is simply the dominant sociopolitical system in the Indian sub-continent. A political system with a tiny elite controlling the rest is inherently unstable (think monarchies or communism) whereas a political system which distributes its elites tends to be stable. That is what the caste system is. Each jati had its own ruling body and social structure. And then there were broader rules which governed how jatis interact, which is where the varnas come in. Now how do you maintain this political system if people are free to leave a jati or intermarry with another jati willy-nilly? You can't. That is why caste endogamy is so strictly enforced (and often violently) in the sub-continent. And the endogamy dates back to like from 2000 years ago. This socio-political system is so fundamental a building block of the sub-contient that even Muslims and Christians follow it unlike in other parts of the world. The other problem to solve in this jati system is that how do you keep some jati doing the dirty or undesirable jobs? This is where the concept of karma comes in. Some people can get away with murder because that's just how the universe works. They will get their just desserts in the next life. Given all that, people who grow up in such a culture carry some biases pretty strongly. Like if a guy gets into medical college due to reservation, but earns the degree like everyone else in his class - by you know completing all the course requirements - he is still not qualified to treat people. The bad karma sticks around. That is how the enforcement works. The cultural beliefs do it.