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Phew, what a post. I am at University of Toronto right now. I have only been here for some months but I have seen enough things to get a sense of the "politics

Phew, what a post. I am at University of Toronto right now. I have only been here for some months but I have seen enough things to get a sense of the "politics" of the place. Also, I've been in many of the world's top universities (Caltech, Cornell, KAUST, Oxford, Stanford, UNAM, and some others with less pompous names); either studying, visiting, working, w/e. I've been doing this for close to 20 years now. I know a lot about what academia is and how it works behind the scenes. With that said ... University of Toronto is, by far, the most amicable, egalitarian and open academic environment I've ever had the chance to be in. I have several Indian friends I've made during my stay, and not a single time has the issue of caste come up to relevance. Caste doesn't have anything to do, at all, with how this particular University chooses their faculty members. I know OP is not directly (or is he?) accusing UofT of taking part on this, but someone reading this could easily get that impression since 1) he's using his academic page to publish this "opinion" and 2) he states: >I had begun to mention references to my caste in Facebook/Twitter threads in the past two years. I was, however, not ready to publicly declare it until <I received tenure (in bold letters)> as it seemed too risky. So, to all other readers, I can assure you that caste had absolutely nothing to do with OPs election/non-election as a faculty member and I really wanted to set the record straight on what actually is a really nice place that treats all of its members with dignity and respect.

kristianp 3y ago
> I have several Indian friends I've made during my stay here, and not a single time has the issue of caste has come up to be discussed. I'm guessing it's not discussed at great length and not discussed with non-Indian people at all unless you brimg it up.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't. Non-Indians literally don't care, and very (very) few Indians actually do (at least in Canada).
  - cududa 3y ago
    > If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't. > Non-Indians literally don't care These are contradicting statements. We know non-Indians don't care ... because most of us don't even know about it, at least in any capacity to have a strong opinion. Maybe non-Indians "literally" not caring is why "it's just hidden from public view"
    - moralestapia 3y ago
      By "don't care", I didn't mean "they know but don't care"; I meant "non-Indians are completely oblivious of this". You cannot accuse of someone behaving in a discriminatory way if those very concepts of discrimination don't even exist in their mind. Come on.
      - cududa 3y ago
        You are entirely missing my point. What I'm saying is the concept of caste discrimination doesn't exist in the minds of the vast majority of Westerners. Which would enable the exact scenario you pose: > If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't. How would anyone outside the caste system be aware of it occurring? And why would people benefiting from their caste talk about it?
        moralestapia 3y ago
        [flagged]
        kredd 3y ago
        If you live in Canada, you most likely have known some Indians and the caste system. It’s just we don’t care? It’s not a taboo topic of discussion either. Obviously a much different topic if the caste system prevails itself within Indian communities itself. Unfortunately I can’t comment much on it, but I’ve heard that’s not extremely uncommon among recent immigrants.
  - 3y ago
cududa 3y ago
Based on your comment of "Indian friends" never bringing it up, do you know what caste they were born into? I mean maybe they never bring it up because it wasn't a problem for their station by birth?
- moralestapia 3y ago
  You didn't get the point of my comment. "Caste" is meaningless here. Edit: @cududa's comment was something like "care to share what caste you were born into?" to which I replied what you see here and then he altered his comment substantially. Sneaky.
  - cududa 3y ago
    Sorry, I reread the comment and realized the author wasn't from India, so I updated my comment. Should have deleted the original and posted a new comment
  - bombcar 3y ago
    The updated post makes sense - you say caste has nothing to do with anything but you may not be in a position to judge. Especially if all your Indian friends are of the same caste, even if that’s accidentally so.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
BowBun 3y ago
Pardon for reaching for personal traits, but it seems relevant in this case. You have a name of Hispanic origin. That gives me the impression that you are not the target audience of this article, or someone that would be likely to notice these very subtle biases that exist in a different culture. Can you think of any very subtle racism/bias that exists in your culture, which foreigners may not be able to pick up on without extreme command of the culture + language? I sure can. Not saying anything about UoT one way or another, just to take what people say seriously unless you have reason to doubt them. This isn't outrage on behalf of someone else, this is someone living the experience and telling their story.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  >Pardon for reaching for personal traits, but it seems relevant in this case. You have a name of Hispanic origin. Don't worry about that, I do well wherever I go. That aside, I never wrote anything to discredit OPs personal story. I just don't want readers to get the wrong impression from UofT.
michaelhoffman 3y ago
I am faculty at University of Toronto. As part of the process of considering someone for tenure here, the university solicits six appraisals from relevant experts at other institutions. The candidate will not know who the referees are. Generally, the appraisals are positive; a negative appraisal may severely affect someone's tenure case. I don't see the concern in this post as one of widespread caste discrimination at University of Toronto, but more that he's worried that a single prejudiced person might upset this, either an external referee, or someone internal involved in the decision-making process. In fact, that is exactly what he says. https://www.aapm.utoronto.ca/academic-administrative-procedures-manual/reviews/tenure-review-candidates-ppaa-2015/ https://www.aapm.utoronto.ca/academic-administrative-procedu...
- moralestapia 3y ago
  Everyone carries some cultural/personal baggage, if that affects the outcome of some otherwise fair procedure it's a sad story but it's not the procedure's fault. >the university solicits six appraisals from relevant experts at other institutions If you think this could be improved, well, show us how.
  - michaelhoffman 3y ago
    It seems like you may be reading some things into my comment that I didn't write? I made no claims about the procedure being fair or unfair—I'm just describing what it is.
    - moralestapia 3y ago
      >Everyone carries some cultural/personal baggage, if that affects the outcome of some otherwise fair procedure it's a sad story but it's not the procedure's fault. This is a neutral statement, though.
Philpax 3y ago
> So, to readers here, I can assure you that caste had absolutely nothing to do with OPs election/non-election as a faculty member That's a strong claim to make for someone who was not at all involved in the process.
- moralestapia 3y ago
  Quite a shallow argument. For starters, the guy did get his tenure, which implies that caste did not have a negative impact in the decision.
  - primax 3y ago
    You're right, yours is a very shallow argument. Unless you can reveal anything about the inner workings of the tenure board, you are taking your impression of a broad organisation and applying it to a specific department, a management structure and a board for which you are ignorant. Please don't make sweeping generalisations and minimise the position of the author unless you have actual knowledge that might let you walk in his shoes.
    - moralestapia 3y ago
      If we are being pedantic, the burden of proof does not lie on me. I didn't publish AND promote a blog post where I feared not getting my current job because of some social dynamic that happens to exist 12,500km from where I am right now. You should ask OP to provide evidence of caste discrimination in Canada, at this particular University.
      - tremon 3y ago
        You: > I can assure you that caste had absolutely nothing to do with OPs election/non-election Also you: > the burden of proof does not lie on me You made very strong claims in your opening post. Asking you to provide some proof to support those claims is perfectly valid.
        3y ago
edgarvaldes 3y ago
I have followed this topic for some time out of curiosity. Every time I read an article I am left with the following impression: in America, caste issues are not explicitly mentioned to non-Indians, no matter how close their co-workers or friends are.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

kristianp 3y ago

> I have several Indian friends I've made during my stay here, and not a single time has the issue of caste has come up to be discussed. I'm guessing it's not discussed at great length and not discussed with non-Indian people at all unless you brimg it up.

moralestapia 3y ago
If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't. Non-Indians literally don't care, and very (very) few Indians actually do (at least in Canada).
- cududa 3y ago
  > If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't. > Non-Indians literally don't care These are contradicting statements. We know non-Indians don't care ... because most of us don't even know about it, at least in any capacity to have a strong opinion. Maybe non-Indians "literally" not caring is why "it's just hidden from public view"
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    By "don't care", I didn't mean "they know but don't care"; I meant "non-Indians are completely oblivious of this". You cannot accuse of someone behaving in a discriminatory way if those very concepts of discrimination don't even exist in their mind. Come on.
    - cududa 3y ago
      You are entirely missing my point. What I'm saying is the concept of caste discrimination doesn't exist in the minds of the vast majority of Westerners. Which would enable the exact scenario you pose: > If you're trying to hint at some "it happens all the time, it's just hidden from public view", it doesn't. How would anyone outside the caste system be aware of it occurring? And why would people benefiting from their caste talk about it?
      - moralestapia 3y ago
        [flagged]
      - kredd 3y ago
        If you live in Canada, you most likely have known some Indians and the caste system. It’s just we don’t care? It’s not a taboo topic of discussion either. Obviously a much different topic if the caste system prevails itself within Indian communities itself. Unfortunately I can’t comment much on it, but I’ve heard that’s not extremely uncommon among recent immigrants.
- 3y ago

cududa 3y ago

Based on your comment of "Indian friends" never bringing it up, do you know what caste they were born into? I mean maybe they never bring it up because it wasn't a problem for their station by birth?

moralestapia 3y ago
You didn't get the point of my comment. "Caste" is meaningless here. Edit: @cududa's comment was something like "care to share what caste you were born into?" to which I replied what you see here and then he altered his comment substantially. Sneaky.
- cududa 3y ago
  Sorry, I reread the comment and realized the author wasn't from India, so I updated my comment. Should have deleted the original and posted a new comment
- bombcar 3y ago
  The updated post makes sense - you say caste has nothing to do with anything but you may not be in a position to judge. Especially if all your Indian friends are of the same caste, even if that’s accidentally so.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]

BowBun 3y ago

Pardon for reaching for personal traits, but it seems relevant in this case. You have a name of Hispanic origin. That gives me the impression that you are not the target audience of this article, or someone that would be likely to notice these very subtle biases that exist in a different culture. Can you think of any very subtle racism/bias that exists in your culture, which foreigners may not be able to pick up on without extreme command of the culture + language? I sure can. Not saying anything about UoT one way or another, just to take what people say seriously unless you have reason to doubt them. This isn't outrage on behalf of someone else, this is someone living the experience and telling their story.

moralestapia 3y ago
>Pardon for reaching for personal traits, but it seems relevant in this case. You have a name of Hispanic origin. Don't worry about that, I do well wherever I go. That aside, I never wrote anything to discredit OPs personal story. I just don't want readers to get the wrong impression from UofT.

michaelhoffman 3y ago

I am faculty at University of Toronto. As part of the process of considering someone for tenure here, the university solicits six appraisals from relevant experts at other institutions. The candidate will not know who the referees are. Generally, the appraisals are positive; a negative appraisal may severely affect someone's tenure case. I don't see the concern in this post as one of widespread caste discrimination at University of Toronto, but more that he's worried that a single prejudiced person might upset this, either an external referee, or someone internal involved in the decision-making process. In fact, that is exactly what he says. https://www.aapm.utoronto.ca/academic-administrative-procedures-manual/reviews/tenure-review-candidates-ppaa-2015/ https://www.aapm.utoronto.ca/academic-administrative-procedu...

moralestapia 3y ago
Everyone carries some cultural/personal baggage, if that affects the outcome of some otherwise fair procedure it's a sad story but it's not the procedure's fault. >the university solicits six appraisals from relevant experts at other institutions If you think this could be improved, well, show us how.
- michaelhoffman 3y ago
  It seems like you may be reading some things into my comment that I didn't write? I made no claims about the procedure being fair or unfair—I'm just describing what it is.
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    >Everyone carries some cultural/personal baggage, if that affects the outcome of some otherwise fair procedure it's a sad story but it's not the procedure's fault. This is a neutral statement, though.

Philpax 3y ago

> So, to readers here, I can assure you that caste had absolutely nothing to do with OPs election/non-election as a faculty member That's a strong claim to make for someone who was not at all involved in the process.

moralestapia 3y ago
Quite a shallow argument. For starters, the guy did get his tenure, which implies that caste did not have a negative impact in the decision.
- primax 3y ago
  You're right, yours is a very shallow argument. Unless you can reveal anything about the inner workings of the tenure board, you are taking your impression of a broad organisation and applying it to a specific department, a management structure and a board for which you are ignorant. Please don't make sweeping generalisations and minimise the position of the author unless you have actual knowledge that might let you walk in his shoes.
  - moralestapia 3y ago
    If we are being pedantic, the burden of proof does not lie on me. I didn't publish AND promote a blog post where I feared not getting my current job because of some social dynamic that happens to exist 12,500km from where I am right now. You should ask OP to provide evidence of caste discrimination in Canada, at this particular University.
    - tremon 3y ago
      You: > I can assure you that caste had absolutely nothing to do with OPs election/non-election Also you: > the burden of proof does not lie on me You made very strong claims in your opening post. Asking you to provide some proof to support those claims is perfectly valid.
      - 3y ago

edgarvaldes 3y ago

I have followed this topic for some time out of curiosity. Every time I read an article I am left with the following impression: in America, caste issues are not explicitly mentioned to non-Indians, no matter how close their co-workers or friends are.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]