9 ms·

Excellent news. When the ISP's claim it's "too hard" to do, you know something is wrong. Either the ISP's are lying (duh) or the taxes and fees structure is jus

Excellent news. When the ISP's claim it's "too hard" to do, you know something is wrong. Either the ISP's are lying (duh) or the taxes and fees structure is just messed up... or someone is trying to slip in bullshit charges. Our world needs more transparency. It breeds competition... and hopefully bankrupts a few corrupt corporations.

polotics 3y ago
Stating the obvious: if the fees are too hard to list, then how the hell are ISP's going to bill those fees?
eppp 3y ago
The taxes and fees change all the time. As an ISP you have no control over what the government fees are going to be. How can you list a price up front when you are at the mercy of the people making up these rules?
- chupchap 3y ago
  List current rates and notify when there are changes. Banks do this already
  - 14 3y ago
    Not only banks but countless other services and businesses. Stock markets change minute to minute. Cryptocurrency changes by the minute. Heck even a grocery store has thousands of items that change from day to day and they seem to manage to list current prices all the time. In Canada they even guarantee the price is correct or get the item free or $10 off if item is more then $10. So I think everyone can see this excuse is a non issue.
    - dessimus 3y ago
      Grocery stores do not advertise with tax-inclusive prices, in fact the opposite. Heck, I live in a no-sales-tax state and even then, some items might still be taxed because they are considered "prepared foods" and fall under hospitality taxes, so the shelf price and total at the register may not be the same.
      - permo-w 3y ago
        this is a US problem. everywhere else I've been manages to put the tax on the labels
- elashri 3y ago
  You are able to charge me for all these taxes and fees. why are you not able to list these charges in details on my monthly invoice?
  - mulmen 3y ago
    These invoices aren’t issued up front. The marketing copy gets ugly and confusing.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ROTMetro 3y ago
      The fees are required to be listed 'at the point of sale' not on advertising. Basically they have to tell you at signup what they are going to charge you. Seems like an extremely reasonable requirement.
      - mulmen 3y ago
        Ah that is a lot more reasonable. But what is the nature of these fees? Can they change over time or based on use? Does Comcast know at signup what the fee will be when billed?
    - az226 3y ago
      So treat them like any other business expense and simplify pricing. They don't list the costs of their data centers, employees, etc. Pricing transparency >> marketing copy.
      - mulmen 3y ago
        It doesn’t sound like these are like any other expense though. Comcast doesn’t control them.
        az226 3y ago
- ruined 3y ago
  if they know enough to bill for it, they know enough to make it a line item on the bill. it's really silly to pretend otherwise.
- landryraccoon 3y ago
  It’s preferable that the burden fall on the ISP than on the consumer imho. The ISP should be free to boldly call out on the billing statement that those fees are government mandated, if they choose to.
- Brian_K_White 3y ago
  What a great gig! I ring a random doorbell. I say "You owe me $2" you say "What for?" I say "...I don't know but you still owe me $2 so I'll take that now." Oh it's not a random doorbell, it's a customer who's lawn I mow. ok. Totally ok then.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- rileymat2 3y ago
  Don't most businesses have to deal with varying supply/input costs to some degree?
tptacek 3y ago
They're obviously not lying. NCTA's letter made the issue clear: retail stores have items pre-labeled, and, under this new rule, they'd need to create thousands of variations of those labels. Unlike sales tax, where the business always knows what it's going to be charging every customer, pass-through fees vary based on the customer's home address. Again: these aren't fees Comcast chooses to charge; it's money local governments are taxing from their residents, piggybacking on the ISP billing system.
- YeBanKo 3y ago
  Sales tax depends on your zip code as well, so it is very much like sales tax.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  That's NCTA's claim, and we should consider their side, but maybe we shouldn't take it all at face value?
  - tptacek 3y ago
    We can take what they're objecting to at face value, because they're the ones objecting. So when I say that NCTA is objecting only to pass-through fees, I feel like I'm on pretty firm ground, because they have not objected to other labeling requirements.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      I'm not saying we should ignore NCTA's public statements, but I'm sure you know that parties who are sophisticated public communicators will object to the thing they are most likely to win on, and which will gain them the most support, rather than the thing they care about most. It happens all the time in public discourse, in politics and in business. Thinking about it, that of course is fundamental to sophisticated negotiations - not revealing your true objectives. And thinking more, people use that same tactic instinctively all the time in social situations.
Spooky23 3y ago
I don’t have any sympathy for telecos. But… it is difficult. For example, the city school district in my city, whose boundaries are not congruous with the city boundaries has an excise tax on different classes of wireless service. These types of rules may have unintended consequences, for example requiring that you collect a street address before providing pricing. It also may encourage telcos like TMobile, who embeds fees in rates to be more AT&T-like “executive retreat recovery surcharge”.
- nix0n 3y ago
  > These types of rules may have unintended consequences, for example requiring that you collect a street address before providing pricing. They already do this. In fact, they will collect your street address before informing you whether they've run fiber to any part of your ZIP (postal) code.
  - mjevans 3y ago
    They should be REQUIRED to provide service if they take an address and make an OFFER of plans.
- Arrath 3y ago
  If they can figure out what to charge me by the time they send me a bill, they damn well can provide a detailed breakdown of the charges. Claims of it being too hard should be derided as the utter bullshit they are.
- p0ckets 3y ago
  According to the article: "all charges that providers impose at their discretion, i.e., charges not mandated by a government." So they wouldn't need to include your school excise tax. If they charge different fees depending on address (again, not taxes) then it seems like the intended effect to provide the actual price the consumer will pay.
  - morgannewman 3y ago
    This does not match my understanding, but I am not an expert. You receiving those charges is not mandated by the government; rather, passing them through to the consumer is entirely discretionary and often done by ISPs or cell carriers. The article discussed this with the suggestion that ISPs instead simply roll it into the base rate if they do not wish to have to advertise the additional fees. This is exactly what T-Mobile does for their cell phone plans and I love it.

polotics 3y ago

Stating the obvious: if the fees are too hard to list, then how the hell are ISP's going to bill those fees?

eppp 3y ago

The taxes and fees change all the time. As an ISP you have no control over what the government fees are going to be. How can you list a price up front when you are at the mercy of the people making up these rules?

chupchap 3y ago
List current rates and notify when there are changes. Banks do this already
- 14 3y ago
  Not only banks but countless other services and businesses. Stock markets change minute to minute. Cryptocurrency changes by the minute. Heck even a grocery store has thousands of items that change from day to day and they seem to manage to list current prices all the time. In Canada they even guarantee the price is correct or get the item free or $10 off if item is more then $10. So I think everyone can see this excuse is a non issue.
  - dessimus 3y ago
    Grocery stores do not advertise with tax-inclusive prices, in fact the opposite. Heck, I live in a no-sales-tax state and even then, some items might still be taxed because they are considered "prepared foods" and fall under hospitality taxes, so the shelf price and total at the register may not be the same.
    - permo-w 3y ago
      this is a US problem. everywhere else I've been manages to put the tax on the labels
elashri 3y ago
You are able to charge me for all these taxes and fees. why are you not able to list these charges in details on my monthly invoice?
- mulmen 3y ago
  These invoices aren’t issued up front. The marketing copy gets ugly and confusing.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    The fees are required to be listed 'at the point of sale' not on advertising. Basically they have to tell you at signup what they are going to charge you. Seems like an extremely reasonable requirement.
    - mulmen 3y ago
      Ah that is a lot more reasonable. But what is the nature of these fees? Can they change over time or based on use? Does Comcast know at signup what the fee will be when billed?
  - az226 3y ago
    So treat them like any other business expense and simplify pricing. They don't list the costs of their data centers, employees, etc. Pricing transparency >> marketing copy.
    - mulmen 3y ago
      It doesn’t sound like these are like any other expense though. Comcast doesn’t control them.
      - az226 3y ago
ruined 3y ago
if they know enough to bill for it, they know enough to make it a line item on the bill. it's really silly to pretend otherwise.
landryraccoon 3y ago
It’s preferable that the burden fall on the ISP than on the consumer imho. The ISP should be free to boldly call out on the billing statement that those fees are government mandated, if they choose to.
Brian_K_White 3y ago
What a great gig! I ring a random doorbell. I say "You owe me $2" you say "What for?" I say "...I don't know but you still owe me $2 so I'll take that now." Oh it's not a random doorbell, it's a customer who's lawn I mow. ok. Totally ok then.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rileymat2 3y ago
Don't most businesses have to deal with varying supply/input costs to some degree?

tptacek 3y ago

They're obviously not lying. NCTA's letter made the issue clear: retail stores have items pre-labeled, and, under this new rule, they'd need to create thousands of variations of those labels. Unlike sales tax, where the business always knows what it's going to be charging every customer, pass-through fees vary based on the customer's home address. Again: these aren't fees Comcast chooses to charge; it's money local governments are taxing from their residents, piggybacking on the ISP billing system.

YeBanKo 3y ago
Sales tax depends on your zip code as well, so it is very much like sales tax.
wolverine876 3y ago
That's NCTA's claim, and we should consider their side, but maybe we shouldn't take it all at face value?
- tptacek 3y ago
  We can take what they're objecting to at face value, because they're the ones objecting. So when I say that NCTA is objecting only to pass-through fees, I feel like I'm on pretty firm ground, because they have not objected to other labeling requirements.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    I'm not saying we should ignore NCTA's public statements, but I'm sure you know that parties who are sophisticated public communicators will object to the thing they are most likely to win on, and which will gain them the most support, rather than the thing they care about most. It happens all the time in public discourse, in politics and in business. Thinking about it, that of course is fundamental to sophisticated negotiations - not revealing your true objectives. And thinking more, people use that same tactic instinctively all the time in social situations.

Spooky23 3y ago

I don’t have any sympathy for telecos. But… it is difficult. For example, the city school district in my city, whose boundaries are not congruous with the city boundaries has an excise tax on different classes of wireless service. These types of rules may have unintended consequences, for example requiring that you collect a street address before providing pricing. It also may encourage telcos like TMobile, who embeds fees in rates to be more AT&T-like “executive retreat recovery surcharge”.

nix0n 3y ago
> These types of rules may have unintended consequences, for example requiring that you collect a street address before providing pricing. They already do this. In fact, they will collect your street address before informing you whether they've run fiber to any part of your ZIP (postal) code.
- mjevans 3y ago
  They should be REQUIRED to provide service if they take an address and make an OFFER of plans.
Arrath 3y ago
If they can figure out what to charge me by the time they send me a bill, they damn well can provide a detailed breakdown of the charges. Claims of it being too hard should be derided as the utter bullshit they are.
p0ckets 3y ago
According to the article: "all charges that providers impose at their discretion, i.e., charges not mandated by a government." So they wouldn't need to include your school excise tax. If they charge different fees depending on address (again, not taxes) then it seems like the intended effect to provide the actual price the consumer will pay.
- morgannewman 3y ago
  This does not match my understanding, but I am not an expert. You receiving those charges is not mandated by the government; rather, passing them through to the consumer is entirely discretionary and often done by ISPs or cell carriers. The article discussed this with the suggestion that ISPs instead simply roll it into the base rate if they do not wish to have to advertise the additional fees. This is exactly what T-Mobile does for their cell phone plans and I love it.