3 ms·

As you can see clearly from the sibling comments to mine, the problem is not that people don't have the means to have and support children. The problem is that

As you can see clearly from the sibling comments to mine, the problem is not that people don't have the means to have and support children. The problem is that they have a very specific vision for what it's supposed to look like, and that specific vision is extremely unaffordable right now. Various demographic, technological, and financial phenomenon have forced us to a point where the big suburban house, yard, fence, dog, etc. is simply not financially feasible for the bottom 80% of the population. Instead of realizing you can do more with less, many of these people are delaying or rejecting the family phase of life. There's a certain echo chamber that makes this seem like an inevitable outcome in the developed world, which is of course clearly proven wrong by the fact that people in third world countries are having families and prospering on fractions of the income that these "first world victims" are struggling with. It's more of an "expectations problem" than any hard and fast financial barrier. People in developed countries simply can't afford to have the life they were expecting to have. Meanwhile, the other half of the world continues putting one foot in front of the other because they never expected it any other way.

pessimizer 3y ago
In countries without proper health care, the lives of everyone lower than upper-middle class are unbelievably precarious. In the US at least, although there was a lot less healthcare 100 years ago, there were no procedures that cost you 10 years salary. Just giving birth in the US costs about $20K. It takes a day, and can be done at home by professionals that don't even need to be trained as nurses at 99% of the safety level. It can be done by a woman alone, with no help, at 80% of the safety level. If you can wring $20K out of something that generally happens by itself without a hitch, your system is fucked up. Life is precarious here, although often luxurious. Exchange that luxury for security, and you'll see a lot more people confident enough in the future to have a baby responsibly. It's not a question of having a suburban yard, it's a question of having something that won't be pulled out from under you quickly. The suburban yard is just a buffer, just like close family that live nearby is. But capitalism atomizes the family, and encourages them to move to find work on a dime. Capitalism is a direct competitor to the family: family is where capitalism isn't. The larger families are, the less capitalism exists. SK is a US vassal state, so I can't imagine that their health care system is much more humane.
- positr0n 3y ago
  The first part of this argument has always made sense to me, but the stats don't seem to back it up. Birth rates have declined just as much or more in the socialist utopias in Europe.

pessimizer 3y ago

In countries without proper health care, the lives of everyone lower than upper-middle class are unbelievably precarious. In the US at least, although there was a lot less healthcare 100 years ago, there were no procedures that cost you 10 years salary. Just giving birth in the US costs about $20K. It takes a day, and can be done at home by professionals that don't even need to be trained as nurses at 99% of the safety level. It can be done by a woman alone, with no help, at 80% of the safety level. If you can wring $20K out of something that generally happens by itself without a hitch, your system is fucked up. Life is precarious here, although often luxurious. Exchange that luxury for security, and you'll see a lot more people confident enough in the future to have a baby responsibly. It's not a question of having a suburban yard, it's a question of having something that won't be pulled out from under you quickly. The suburban yard is just a buffer, just like close family that live nearby is. But capitalism atomizes the family, and encourages them to move to find work on a dime. Capitalism is a direct competitor to the family: family is where capitalism isn't. The larger families are, the less capitalism exists. SK is a US vassal state, so I can't imagine that their health care system is much more humane.

positr0n 3y ago
The first part of this argument has always made sense to me, but the stats don't seem to back it up. Birth rates have declined just as much or more in the socialist utopias in Europe.