4 ms·

for Christianity, at any rate, hard omnipotence is clearly ruled out by the Crucifixion

by invalidOrTaken 3y ago

sashenka 3y ago
[dead]
akomtu 3y ago
Such disputes should be resolved in an octagon cage: a heavy-weight theologian vs a logician.
joelshep 3y ago
If God is omnipotent, surely that would include the ability to do things that we mere mortals would construe as harmful or self-defeating, wouldn't it?
- invalidOrTaken 3y ago
  certainly, but Christ specifically prayed not to have to through with it (or the ordeal in the garden, depending on your interpretation), when He prayed: >Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there is further the question of our own suffering: if we're supposed to get some "good" out of it, why not just wave a wand and give us the good without the bad? I conclude that God lives in a world with rules like you and me, though they are likely quite different.
  - s__s 3y ago
    It seems to me that an omnipotent being could, in theory, create some environment or scenario in which events can unfold outside of their own control? Otherwise they wouldn’t truly be omnipotent?
    - invalidOrTaken 3y ago
      I mean, that right there is sort of a logic disproof of the concept of omnipotence---"Could God make a rock so heavy He couldn't lift it," etc. But more seriously imo is the why. Why make yourself less powerful? And any answer to that faces the question: if you're so omnipotent, why not wave your hand and get that good thing without disempowering yourself?
      - s__s 3y ago
        Interesting. As long as the limitation in power is self-imposed by the omnipotent being, I don’t find it logically inconstant at all. The “why” question is a good one. I’m not well versed in theology, but I thought the general idea was that God’s goal was to create independant beings with agency and free will. And in order to accomplish that God (an omnipotent being) would by necessity have to limit their own power. Without doing so it would be logically impossible for other free beings to exist.
rednerrus 3y ago
I'm gonna kick myself later for this. Why?
- invalidOrTaken 3y ago
  don't worry, I already got my dose of theo-argument out of twitter the other day. To your question, I basically agree with Russell's argument that a truly omnipotent God can just skip means and go straight to ends. But there are multiple instances of Christ facing something unwanted--- the most memorable being the Crucifixion. If all-powerful, why go through with it? And if any good thing came of it, why not just omnipotence that thing into existence and skip the hard stuff? Don't get me wrong, I believe in the divinity, and supremacy, of Christ, and I believe Christ when He said that "all things are possible to him that believeth". But hard omnipotence, transcending even logic, seems pretty conclusively ruled out to me. I hope you don't kick yourself!
  - beaker52 3y ago
    > And if any good thing came of it, why not just omnipotence that thing into existence and skip the hard stuff? I have an answer for you. The tl;dr is that it’s not about the result, but read on. So the outcome isn’t the reason. How do I know? Time isn’t a thing for God - he can skip to the end. God can have any state he desires, in an instant. Yet he is here through us. But why? We’ll answer this from two sides, first: why not? You’re infinite and can have literally everything, everywhere, all at once, in fact, you don’t even know what sensations are, so what else are you going to do? Think about that for a moment. You’re infinite. You’re the king with untold riches. Bearing that context in mind: why? The answer is the same. Because you’re a single infinite being. You can literally have everything, everywhere, all at once. God isn’t good or evil. He is good and evil. So as an infinite being, what don’t you have? Limitations, form (a limitation) and friends (someone that’s not you, because you’re it - the beginning and end). So this - _is_ the why. Why God did this. So that is to say that we’re all God, experiencing limitation, form and companionship. And to keep the illusion going, God has to hide the ultimate secret truth from himself: that he is infinite, that he has everything, everywhere, all at once. But here we are trapped on a lonely planet with finite potential in a seemingly infinite box called space. Here, we are, experiencing _this_, feeling, sensing, solitude, companionship, separation, union, pain, joy. We experience who we are, because God has temporarily forgotten his infinity.

for Christianity, at any rate, hard omnipotence is clearly ruled out by the Crucifixion

sashenka 3y ago

[dead]

akomtu 3y ago

Such disputes should be resolved in an octagon cage: a heavy-weight theologian vs a logician.

joelshep 3y ago

If God is omnipotent, surely that would include the ability to do things that we mere mortals would construe as harmful or self-defeating, wouldn't it?

invalidOrTaken 3y ago
certainly, but Christ specifically prayed not to have to through with it (or the ordeal in the garden, depending on your interpretation), when He prayed: >Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done. And there is further the question of our own suffering: if we're supposed to get some "good" out of it, why not just wave a wand and give us the good without the bad? I conclude that God lives in a world with rules like you and me, though they are likely quite different.
- s__s 3y ago
  It seems to me that an omnipotent being could, in theory, create some environment or scenario in which events can unfold outside of their own control? Otherwise they wouldn’t truly be omnipotent?
  - invalidOrTaken 3y ago
    I mean, that right there is sort of a logic disproof of the concept of omnipotence---"Could God make a rock so heavy He couldn't lift it," etc. But more seriously imo is the why. Why make yourself less powerful? And any answer to that faces the question: if you're so omnipotent, why not wave your hand and get that good thing without disempowering yourself?
    - s__s 3y ago
      Interesting. As long as the limitation in power is self-imposed by the omnipotent being, I don’t find it logically inconstant at all. The “why” question is a good one. I’m not well versed in theology, but I thought the general idea was that God’s goal was to create independant beings with agency and free will. And in order to accomplish that God (an omnipotent being) would by necessity have to limit their own power. Without doing so it would be logically impossible for other free beings to exist.

rednerrus 3y ago

I'm gonna kick myself later for this. Why?

invalidOrTaken 3y ago
don't worry, I already got my dose of theo-argument out of twitter the other day. To your question, I basically agree with Russell's argument that a truly omnipotent God can just skip means and go straight to ends. But there are multiple instances of Christ facing something unwanted--- the most memorable being the Crucifixion. If all-powerful, why go through with it? And if any good thing came of it, why not just omnipotence that thing into existence and skip the hard stuff? Don't get me wrong, I believe in the divinity, and supremacy, of Christ, and I believe Christ when He said that "all things are possible to him that believeth". But hard omnipotence, transcending even logic, seems pretty conclusively ruled out to me. I hope you don't kick yourself!
- beaker52 3y ago
  > And if any good thing came of it, why not just omnipotence that thing into existence and skip the hard stuff? I have an answer for you. The tl;dr is that it’s not about the result, but read on. So the outcome isn’t the reason. How do I know? Time isn’t a thing for God - he can skip to the end. God can have any state he desires, in an instant. Yet he is here through us. But why? We’ll answer this from two sides, first: why not? You’re infinite and can have literally everything, everywhere, all at once, in fact, you don’t even know what sensations are, so what else are you going to do? Think about that for a moment. You’re infinite. You’re the king with untold riches. Bearing that context in mind: why? The answer is the same. Because you’re a single infinite being. You can literally have everything, everywhere, all at once. God isn’t good or evil. He is good and evil. So as an infinite being, what don’t you have? Limitations, form (a limitation) and friends (someone that’s not you, because you’re it - the beginning and end). So this - _is_ the why. Why God did this. So that is to say that we’re all God, experiencing limitation, form and companionship. And to keep the illusion going, God has to hide the ultimate secret truth from himself: that he is infinite, that he has everything, everywhere, all at once. But here we are trapped on a lonely planet with finite potential in a seemingly infinite box called space. Here, we are, experiencing _this_, feeling, sensing, solitude, companionship, separation, union, pain, joy. We experience who we are, because God has temporarily forgotten his infinity.