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Amazon CEO says ‘it’s probably not going to work out’ for employees who defy RTO

26 points by ab_testing 3y ago

rolph 3y ago
Employers are trying to get their power back in RTO plans https://www.morningbrew.com/daily/stories/Return-to-office-mandates-2023 https://www.morningbrew.com/daily/stories/Return-to-office-m...
- GoToRO 3y ago
  On the flip side, Twitter CEO and vocal remote work critic Elon Musk recently ordered Seattle employees to WFH as a cost-cutting measure.—MK Hilarious!
mikece 3y ago
It would be one thing if companies have had (1) zero turnover since the COVID WFH started, and (2) could clearly show that WFH hurt their productivity; in that case a "y'all come back to the office now" makes sense. The company I was working for when WFH started was concerned about a drop in productivity but instead saw an INCREASE in productivity, so much so they never mandated RTO after that.
- garciasn 3y ago
  Amazon’s CEO admits there’s no data driving the RTO policy decision. It’s simply his opinion and the opinion of unnamed other CEOs that employees must return. That’s my issue with it all. Companies are supposedly data-driven and Amazon is known for heavily relying on data and KPIs to measure efficiency, productivity, and thus success or no success. They’re openly admitting those are not in play here. In this case, they’re simply being assholes to their employees.
  - birdyrooster 3y ago
    Let’s be more specific about the obvious conflicts of interest at play. These managers, directors, and VPs are the same who have the most to lose if real estate loses its value. Their portfolios are diversified and they have commercial and residential real estate positions they don’t want to lose on, even if it means fucking over their employees.
    - garciasn 3y ago
      We can speculate for sure and their real estate investments are a likely reason but I was trying to only use their historical behaviors and known information about the decision to make the point.
    - smabie 3y ago
      This is insane speculation? You're saying these executives are invested in some REIT so they push RTO to pump their own bags? Maybe, just maybe, they think RTO is better for the company?
      - birdyrooster 3y ago
        I think they can't tell if RTO is better for the company, so they think, "why tank my REITs, directly owned properties, or other real estate investment plays if I am not sure?"
brailsafe 3y ago
In one of my shortest HR screening interviews ever, I was asked if I'm interested in remaining remote, to which I responded "I'd be potentially open to a hybrid option leaning towards remote". The interviewer said "For full transparency, we do have a mandated 3 days a week in-office policy, would that work for you?" and I said (really trying to be optimistic and giving them the benefit of the doubt) "Well, I suppose it would depend on why that policy exists, is there specific necessity for it?" to which she rattled off the standard nonsense that most companies do, amounting to approximately "It's just the way we work for collaboration purposes, we have a beautiful office here in town, and we're a startup that's been going since 2021" (strange time to start a RTO company) etc... Trying to find even the slightest bit of positivity in that, I responded with "In that case, I'd have further questions, such as what is the physical office space like? If it just the entire company in a giant open-office with everyone chatting away and so on, I have zero interest in moving forward with that." and she said "Yes, that's pretty much exactly what it's like, so in that respect we can probably stop here", and I agreed and wished her well in her journey. Quite comical. I'm not going to drive myself into another depression and burnout cycle while trying to do technical work in a physical space there's really no reason to be, while trying to ignore the stupid distractions and mouth sounds of sales people and managers around me.
- turtlebits 3y ago
  I think you just agreed with the point of the article which is to "disagree and commit", instead of companies being wishy-washy in their policies. Sounds like an ideal experience.
  - deagle50 3y ago
    It's just code for "do it anyway", which would be fine in exchange for payment if expressed honestly.
    - brailsafe 3y ago
      Do it anyway as in the employees should commit to their stance on working remotely , or Amazon should commit to their stance on RTO? Re-reading it, it's hard to parse for some reason.
more_corn 3y ago
Excellent hiring opportunity.
lapcat 3y ago
Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37307032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37307032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37303332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37303332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37301728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37301728
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ChrisArchitect 3y ago
[dupe]
- ChrisArchitect 3y ago
  More discussion over here a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37301728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37301728
bmitc 3y ago
My Amazon interview was one of my worst experiences. It gave every indication that you were to be viewed as a cog in the machine, and I was treated as such during the interview process, which ended up being a gigantic waste of time from my point of view. And their company values/principles are hilarious. They make it sound like they're operating at 100% efficiency in a demi-god-like way. Meanwhile, most of their services and products are outright terrible, with a lot of product success driven by consumption addiction and monopolistic practices. You can see here in the posted article the cognitive dissonace Amazon has. Some of Amazon's principles are "Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer", "Be Right, a Lot", "Frugality", and "Dive Deep". All of these are on display as being violated here.
i_play_stax 3y ago
Remote work allowed me to afford a house. Since 2020 I have turned that house into a Home. I am 60-90mins away from "The Jobs" now. In order for me to RTO, a company must accept the burden of my commute rather than put it on me. This means, if I have 2-3hrs of round-trip commute; that time comes out of my ~8hr workday. These companies have no loyalty to you. Any loyalty begins and ends with your grounds for establishing a valid lawsuit. Do NOT care more about the company than the company cares about you. (Spoiler: they don't care about you. You are a resource to exploit and render profit.)

26 points by ab_testing 3y ago

Employers are trying to get their power back in RTO plans https://www.morningbrew.com/daily/stories/Return-to-office-mandates-2023 https://www.morningbrew.com/daily/stories/Return-to-office-m...

GoToRO 3y ago
On the flip side, Twitter CEO and vocal remote work critic Elon Musk recently ordered Seattle employees to WFH as a cost-cutting measure.—MK Hilarious!

mikece 3y ago

It would be one thing if companies have had (1) zero turnover since the COVID WFH started, and (2) could clearly show that WFH hurt their productivity; in that case a "y'all come back to the office now" makes sense. The company I was working for when WFH started was concerned about a drop in productivity but instead saw an INCREASE in productivity, so much so they never mandated RTO after that.

garciasn 3y ago
Amazon’s CEO admits there’s no data driving the RTO policy decision. It’s simply his opinion and the opinion of unnamed other CEOs that employees must return. That’s my issue with it all. Companies are supposedly data-driven and Amazon is known for heavily relying on data and KPIs to measure efficiency, productivity, and thus success or no success. They’re openly admitting those are not in play here. In this case, they’re simply being assholes to their employees.
- birdyrooster 3y ago
  Let’s be more specific about the obvious conflicts of interest at play. These managers, directors, and VPs are the same who have the most to lose if real estate loses its value. Their portfolios are diversified and they have commercial and residential real estate positions they don’t want to lose on, even if it means fucking over their employees.
  - garciasn 3y ago
    We can speculate for sure and their real estate investments are a likely reason but I was trying to only use their historical behaviors and known information about the decision to make the point.
  - smabie 3y ago
    This is insane speculation? You're saying these executives are invested in some REIT so they push RTO to pump their own bags? Maybe, just maybe, they think RTO is better for the company?
    - birdyrooster 3y ago
      I think they can't tell if RTO is better for the company, so they think, "why tank my REITs, directly owned properties, or other real estate investment plays if I am not sure?"

brailsafe 3y ago

In one of my shortest HR screening interviews ever, I was asked if I'm interested in remaining remote, to which I responded "I'd be potentially open to a hybrid option leaning towards remote". The interviewer said "For full transparency, we do have a mandated 3 days a week in-office policy, would that work for you?" and I said (really trying to be optimistic and giving them the benefit of the doubt) "Well, I suppose it would depend on why that policy exists, is there specific necessity for it?" to which she rattled off the standard nonsense that most companies do, amounting to approximately "It's just the way we work for collaboration purposes, we have a beautiful office here in town, and we're a startup that's been going since 2021" (strange time to start a RTO company) etc... Trying to find even the slightest bit of positivity in that, I responded with "In that case, I'd have further questions, such as what is the physical office space like? If it just the entire company in a giant open-office with everyone chatting away and so on, I have zero interest in moving forward with that." and she said "Yes, that's pretty much exactly what it's like, so in that respect we can probably stop here", and I agreed and wished her well in her journey. Quite comical. I'm not going to drive myself into another depression and burnout cycle while trying to do technical work in a physical space there's really no reason to be, while trying to ignore the stupid distractions and mouth sounds of sales people and managers around me.

turtlebits 3y ago
I think you just agreed with the point of the article which is to "disagree and commit", instead of companies being wishy-washy in their policies. Sounds like an ideal experience.
- deagle50 3y ago
  It's just code for "do it anyway", which would be fine in exchange for payment if expressed honestly.
  - brailsafe 3y ago
    Do it anyway as in the employees should commit to their stance on working remotely , or Amazon should commit to their stance on RTO? Re-reading it, it's hard to parse for some reason.

more_corn 3y ago

Excellent hiring opportunity.

lapcat 3y ago

Dupe: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312853 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37312159 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37307032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37307032 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37303332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37303332 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37301728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37301728

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ChrisArchitect 3y ago

[dupe]

ChrisArchitect 3y ago
More discussion over here a few days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37301728 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37301728

bmitc 3y ago

My Amazon interview was one of my worst experiences. It gave every indication that you were to be viewed as a cog in the machine, and I was treated as such during the interview process, which ended up being a gigantic waste of time from my point of view. And their company values/principles are hilarious. They make it sound like they're operating at 100% efficiency in a demi-god-like way. Meanwhile, most of their services and products are outright terrible, with a lot of product success driven by consumption addiction and monopolistic practices. You can see here in the posted article the cognitive dissonace Amazon has. Some of Amazon's principles are "Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer", "Be Right, a Lot", "Frugality", and "Dive Deep". All of these are on display as being violated here.

i_play_stax 3y ago

Remote work allowed me to afford a house. Since 2020 I have turned that house into a Home. I am 60-90mins away from "The Jobs" now. In order for me to RTO, a company must accept the burden of my commute rather than put it on me. This means, if I have 2-3hrs of round-trip commute; that time comes out of my ~8hr workday. These companies have no loyalty to you. Any loyalty begins and ends with your grounds for establishing a valid lawsuit. Do NOT care more about the company than the company cares about you. (Spoiler: they don't care about you. You are a resource to exploit and render profit.)