3 ms·

My impression was that in the US the housing crisis was caused by regulatory burden, zoning laws and nimbyism. Is there clear evidence of US housing problems st

My impression was that in the US the housing crisis was caused by regulatory burden, zoning laws and nimbyism. Is there clear evidence of US housing problems stemming from capitalism?

jmyeet 3y ago
Yes there are restrictions on supply but you need to look at why for the things you mention. Zoning doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's implemented by politicians. Why? What forces are pushing for that? Is it the NIMBYs? Maybe. But money talks in politics. So what political interests are pushing for restrictive zoning? Why? The real problem here is that housing became financialized (like every aspect of our lives). People see their $300k house go up in value to $600k and think they've made money. But have they? You still need a place to live. If every house that cost $300k now costs $600k, you still only have one house unit of wealth. So what have you really gained? One extension of this is you decide you need to own multiple properties. You need to become a landlord. For many, this is their retirement. But what is being a landlord? It's withholding a basic human need (ie shelter) for profit. it's choosing to let people die on the streets if it makes you money. So this system only really benefits the truly wealthy to accumulate wealth by extracting wealth through rent at the threat of violence. Eviction is violence. Witholding shelter is violence. Now this might be fine if the government provided a baseline for shelter through what is most commonly referred to as "social housing". Americans, in particular, who hear this think "projects" or "ghettoes" (ie Section 8 Housing) but look at a city like Vienna where ~60% (IIRC) of the housing is owned by the government [1]. But we don't have such a aystem in the US because it would reduce profits. It would reduce the extraction of wealth from workers. This is capitalism. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41VJudBdYXY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41VJudBdYXY
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y ago
  Cool, so why is the solution simply not getting money out of politics and allowing people to build as much and as affordable housing as they want? Why is the solution to have the government distribute living accommodations, as opposed to making those dwellings cost pennies like anything else you can buy on Amazon, and let the markets figure this out the way they have with TVs and pencils?
bobthepanda 3y ago
One of the big blockers is cost of daycare. Some countries but not the US subsidize daycare. Childcare is over 10% of median income in a lot of counties: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/topics/childcare/median-family-income-by-age-care-setting?_ga=2.81192023.1544990194.1693422547-227595342.1693422547 https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/topics/childcare/median-fami... There is also a shortage of daycare places because it is a fairly low paying, high stress job. Anecdotally I know some people who have quit their job because that is easier than arranging daycare.
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y ago
  Sorry, what is the connection between US housing regulation and the cost of daycare?
  - bobthepanda 3y ago
    Whoops, I misread before my coffee and thought they were talking about capitalism generally. --- One critique of capitalism for housing, is that private housing doesn't get built in a bust cycle, or generally when it's no longer profitable to do so. The recent boom can be traced back largely to supply not recovering to pre-2007 levels, and the market being unable to make up for lost time. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST I am not aware of a housing market that is nearly all private that has built its way to affordability, short of massive economic collapse (e.g. '90s Japan) or some other catastrophic event.

My impression was that in the US the housing crisis was caused by regulatory burden, zoning laws and nimbyism. Is there clear evidence of US housing problems stemming from capitalism?

jmyeet 3y ago

Yes there are restrictions on supply but you need to look at why for the things you mention. Zoning doesn't happen in a vacuum. It's implemented by politicians. Why? What forces are pushing for that? Is it the NIMBYs? Maybe. But money talks in politics. So what political interests are pushing for restrictive zoning? Why? The real problem here is that housing became financialized (like every aspect of our lives). People see their $300k house go up in value to $600k and think they've made money. But have they? You still need a place to live. If every house that cost $300k now costs $600k, you still only have one house unit of wealth. So what have you really gained? One extension of this is you decide you need to own multiple properties. You need to become a landlord. For many, this is their retirement. But what is being a landlord? It's withholding a basic human need (ie shelter) for profit. it's choosing to let people die on the streets if it makes you money. So this system only really benefits the truly wealthy to accumulate wealth by extracting wealth through rent at the threat of violence. Eviction is violence. Witholding shelter is violence. Now this might be fine if the government provided a baseline for shelter through what is most commonly referred to as "social housing". Americans, in particular, who hear this think "projects" or "ghettoes" (ie Section 8 Housing) but look at a city like Vienna where ~60% (IIRC) of the housing is owned by the government [1]. But we don't have such a aystem in the US because it would reduce profits. It would reduce the extraction of wealth from workers. This is capitalism. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41VJudBdYXY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41VJudBdYXY

8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y ago
Cool, so why is the solution simply not getting money out of politics and allowing people to build as much and as affordable housing as they want? Why is the solution to have the government distribute living accommodations, as opposed to making those dwellings cost pennies like anything else you can buy on Amazon, and let the markets figure this out the way they have with TVs and pencils?

bobthepanda 3y ago

One of the big blockers is cost of daycare. Some countries but not the US subsidize daycare. Childcare is over 10% of median income in a lot of counties: https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/topics/childcare/median-family-income-by-age-care-setting?_ga=2.81192023.1544990194.1693422547-227595342.1693422547 https://www.dol.gov/agencies/wb/topics/childcare/median-fami... There is also a shortage of daycare places because it is a fairly low paying, high stress job. Anecdotally I know some people who have quit their job because that is easier than arranging daycare.

8f2ab37a-ed6c 3y ago
Sorry, what is the connection between US housing regulation and the cost of daycare?
- bobthepanda 3y ago
  Whoops, I misread before my coffee and thought they were talking about capitalism generally. --- One critique of capitalism for housing, is that private housing doesn't get built in a bust cycle, or generally when it's no longer profitable to do so. The recent boom can be traced back largely to supply not recovering to pre-2007 levels, and the market being unable to make up for lost time. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOUST I am not aware of a housing market that is nearly all private that has built its way to affordability, short of massive economic collapse (e.g. '90s Japan) or some other catastrophic event.