5 ms·

Would it be possible for the government to 'phase out' last names and instead rely on other forms of identification? Instead of putting in your name in an appli

Would it be possible for the government to 'phase out' last names and instead rely on other forms of identification? Instead of putting in your name in an application form, you just list an id number and your address. Then when you show up, you only mention your first and middle name.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
teachrdan 3y ago
I just posted this on a probably-dead thread about caste discrimination, but the short of it is the folks who wish to discriminate by caste have a variety of ways to determine what your caste is. From the Vice article below: Indians will not ask outright what caste you are, as it’s seen as overly discriminatory, but they use more subtle methods to identify your place in the caste structure. “Sometimes they ask, ‘Are you vegetarian?’ If you say yes, they ask are you vegetarian by birth or by choice, before getting into which village you come from, because sometimes the village gives up your caste,” Sam said. Another method described to VICE News is the pat on the back to see if the person is wearing a Juneau, a sacred white thread typically worn by the upper castes in India. Higher-caste Indians will also search social media accounts to ascertain a job candidate’s religious views or diet. https://www.vice.com/en/article/3azjp5/silicon-valley-has-a-caste-discrimination-problem https://www.vice.com/en/article/3azjp5/silicon-valley-has-a-...
- alehlopeh 3y ago
  What could vegetarian by birth possibly mean
  - curtisblaine 3y ago
    I guess born in a vegetarian family, educated as a vegetarian.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Can a born vegetarian be identified by measuring, I don't know, the diameter of nostrils or distance between nose tip and chin? And if so, do born vegans differ from those measurwmemts? And do they get bonus points? Sarcasm aside, this whole caste system is easily a contentender for the worst form discrimination and, yes, racism is existence today.
  - isanjay 3y ago
    Most Brahmins (a caste) are vegetarian.
- isanjay 3y ago
  > Indians will not ask outright what caste you are. My team lead asked me in a Teams call, lol. At that point, he doesn't even know what I look like (because of covid, and we don't do video calls). (I am not OBC though) > Higher-caste Indians will also search social media accounts to ascertain a job candidate’s religious views or diet. I don't believe this at all. Feels like overexaggerating.
  - lisper 3y ago
    > (I am not OBC though) Life imitates art. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taSH_nZkRdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taSH_nZkRdw
  - Bjartr 3y ago
    > I don't believe this at all. Feels like overexaggerating. Never underestimate how petty people can be. We've seen plenty of times in the past decade where people doing hiring will examine social media of candidates (on the extreme end even demand handing over of your phone phone during an interview). So it's hardly a stretch to think people with such views could overlap with people who harbor caste prejudice.
  - alfalfasprout 3y ago
    This is absolutely a thing and I have witnessed it. And I'm not even Indian.
  - rhuru 3y ago
    Yeah it is probably bullshit.
- curtisblaine 3y ago
  What happens if you are from a lower caste but wear the white thread to misdirect? Or you lie about being / not being vegetarian by choice / at birth?
  - serialNumber 3y ago
    If someone really wanted to find out, they would be able to. You could misdirect someone just passively asking, however as soon as the questions got more pointed, you'd have a hard time keeping up the charade. Something as simple as the clothes you wear or the food you ate or the mannerisms you had could "give you up".
  - sharkjacobs 3y ago
    What happens if you lie on your resume? what if you practice speaking with a more prestigious accent than you grew up with? What if you carefully study your friends who went to private schools and summered in the Hamptons to learn how to imitate their ineffable shibboleth mannerisms? The answer is yes, you can do these things, and it will confer exactly the benefits you imagine. And the consequences for getting "caught" aren't usually serious, either. But sometimes they are.
    - lozenge 3y ago
      > What if you practice speaking with a more prestigious accent than you grew up with? What if you carefully study your friends who went to private schools and summered in the Hamptons to learn how to imitate their ineffable shibboleth mannerisms? > The answer is yes, you can do these things I mean, I personally can't. (From a UK perspective.) First I would need access to these people and spend a lot of time with them. That could be difficult in itself if they are discriminatory. Then I would need another separate social group to practice my new personality with. Plus I'm just not a good actor. So it's not surprising that people's movement in social class is pretty limited. This isn't even getting into how people of your previous class will treat you if they think you've deserted them.
    - lucb1e 3y ago
      > What happens if you lie on your resume? Lying about credentials or experience is a bit different from wearing a piece of clothing you arguably find pretty or obviously inconsequential things like saying you eat meat or not
- arxenix 3y ago
  Are you indian / have you actually observed this? I'm Indian-American and in my experience this has been entirely non-existent so this article kinda baffles me. I've been asked whether I'm vegetarian before, but always in the context of grabbing food (respecting dietary preferences), and certainly haven't noticed any discrimination after saying that I'm not. I worked in SF for a year and currently in Seattle. Have several Indian friends/colleagues aswell and not once have I ever heard caste brought up
  - shitlord 3y ago
    I was born in the US, and my parents immigrated from India. I encountered this once at a tech company in Seattle. My team's previous manager left the org, so we were assigned a new one. On our very first 1:1 meeting, he wasn't interested in discussing projects, but he kept asking all of these bizarre personal questions. At first, I didn't understand, but it became clear later on.
    - geephroh 3y ago
      I'm really sorry that you experienced this. If you're still in Seattle and it ever happens again, know that caste discrimination is now formally banned as of March of this year. Please spread the word that claims can be filed with the city's Office for Civil Rights.[1] 1. https://www.seattle.gov/civilrights/civil-rights-enforcement/new-laws-and-amendments/caste https://www.seattle.gov/civilrights/civil-rights-enforcement...
- crop_rotation 3y ago
  This sounds like someone who has no idea about India. Being vegetarian tells you nothing about somoene's caste at all, either by choice or birth. You might make a wild guess but it has very less chance of being correct. Vegetarianism permeates throughout society in both upper and lower classes. Asking someone's village name to know anything is laughable. There are about a million villages in India, and most villages have mixed caste populations, so this is just so laughably absurd. Even if you meet someone in a local city, you will not get to know their caste by their village name, let alone meeting someone in a big Indian city or the US. Asking someone's village gives you same amount of information as doing Math.random(1e6). > see if the person is wearing a Juneau This is something that has almost stopped and at this point almost nobody wears it since it involves a lot of extra effort. It would be very very long ago when the % of peopling wearing it was high enough. > Higher-caste Indians will also search social media accounts to ascertain a job candidate’s religious views or diet. This again sounds like a handway statement that is somehow intended to show how one can easily find someone else's caste.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
madcaptenor 3y ago
I'd imagine you can get some amount of information from a first name as well.
- isanjay 3y ago
  No just religion.
- serialNumber 3y ago
  Usually not - maybe if the name is super traditional, however first names are pretty much equal across castes.
- unmole 3y ago
  Why would you imagine that?
  - madcaptenor 3y ago
    There's definitely some correlation between name and socioeconomic status in a lot of cultures. I'm surprised to hear that's not so in India.
    - Ar-Curunir 3y ago
      It definitely is. Brahmin names might be more Sanskritic, for example.
      - unmole 3y ago
        First names are defined more by fashion than anything else.
        Ar-Curunir 3y ago
        Perhaps, but definitely people from different communities and castes are influenced by different fashion trends.
jccalhoun 3y ago
I would guess there are a ton of ways to tell what caste someone is. Where they are from, accent, one article I remember reading mentioned a person was Buddhist not Hindu and keeping that secret to avoid caste discrimination https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidden-caste-system/ https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidde...
rhuru 3y ago
Indian government offers different benefits to different castes. For example say you murder someone. The victim's caste will play a big role in how you are treated. If you kill a person belonging to so called "lower caste", your punishment would higher and bar for evidence much lower. If you belong to certain castes then you get government jobs and promotions on priority bases. Upto 50% of jobs are reserved based on caste. Around 70% of admissions in colleges are done by looking at your caste. GOVERNMENT insists on knowing your caste.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

teachrdan 3y ago

I just posted this on a probably-dead thread about caste discrimination, but the short of it is the folks who wish to discriminate by caste have a variety of ways to determine what your caste is. From the Vice article below: Indians will not ask outright what caste you are, as it’s seen as overly discriminatory, but they use more subtle methods to identify your place in the caste structure. “Sometimes they ask, ‘Are you vegetarian?’ If you say yes, they ask are you vegetarian by birth or by choice, before getting into which village you come from, because sometimes the village gives up your caste,” Sam said. Another method described to VICE News is the pat on the back to see if the person is wearing a Juneau, a sacred white thread typically worn by the upper castes in India. Higher-caste Indians will also search social media accounts to ascertain a job candidate’s religious views or diet. https://www.vice.com/en/article/3azjp5/silicon-valley-has-a-caste-discrimination-problem https://www.vice.com/en/article/3azjp5/silicon-valley-has-a-...

alehlopeh 3y ago
What could vegetarian by birth possibly mean
- curtisblaine 3y ago
  I guess born in a vegetarian family, educated as a vegetarian.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Can a born vegetarian be identified by measuring, I don't know, the diameter of nostrils or distance between nose tip and chin? And if so, do born vegans differ from those measurwmemts? And do they get bonus points? Sarcasm aside, this whole caste system is easily a contentender for the worst form discrimination and, yes, racism is existence today.
- isanjay 3y ago
  Most Brahmins (a caste) are vegetarian.
isanjay 3y ago
> Indians will not ask outright what caste you are. My team lead asked me in a Teams call, lol. At that point, he doesn't even know what I look like (because of covid, and we don't do video calls). (I am not OBC though) > Higher-caste Indians will also search social media accounts to ascertain a job candidate’s religious views or diet. I don't believe this at all. Feels like overexaggerating.
- lisper 3y ago
  > (I am not OBC though) Life imitates art. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taSH_nZkRdw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taSH_nZkRdw
- Bjartr 3y ago
  > I don't believe this at all. Feels like overexaggerating. Never underestimate how petty people can be. We've seen plenty of times in the past decade where people doing hiring will examine social media of candidates (on the extreme end even demand handing over of your phone phone during an interview). So it's hardly a stretch to think people with such views could overlap with people who harbor caste prejudice.
- alfalfasprout 3y ago
  This is absolutely a thing and I have witnessed it. And I'm not even Indian.
- rhuru 3y ago
  Yeah it is probably bullshit.
curtisblaine 3y ago
What happens if you are from a lower caste but wear the white thread to misdirect? Or you lie about being / not being vegetarian by choice / at birth?
- serialNumber 3y ago
  If someone really wanted to find out, they would be able to. You could misdirect someone just passively asking, however as soon as the questions got more pointed, you'd have a hard time keeping up the charade. Something as simple as the clothes you wear or the food you ate or the mannerisms you had could "give you up".
- sharkjacobs 3y ago
  What happens if you lie on your resume? what if you practice speaking with a more prestigious accent than you grew up with? What if you carefully study your friends who went to private schools and summered in the Hamptons to learn how to imitate their ineffable shibboleth mannerisms? The answer is yes, you can do these things, and it will confer exactly the benefits you imagine. And the consequences for getting "caught" aren't usually serious, either. But sometimes they are.
  - lozenge 3y ago
    > What if you practice speaking with a more prestigious accent than you grew up with? What if you carefully study your friends who went to private schools and summered in the Hamptons to learn how to imitate their ineffable shibboleth mannerisms? > The answer is yes, you can do these things I mean, I personally can't. (From a UK perspective.) First I would need access to these people and spend a lot of time with them. That could be difficult in itself if they are discriminatory. Then I would need another separate social group to practice my new personality with. Plus I'm just not a good actor. So it's not surprising that people's movement in social class is pretty limited. This isn't even getting into how people of your previous class will treat you if they think you've deserted them.
  - lucb1e 3y ago
    > What happens if you lie on your resume? Lying about credentials or experience is a bit different from wearing a piece of clothing you arguably find pretty or obviously inconsequential things like saying you eat meat or not
arxenix 3y ago
Are you indian / have you actually observed this? I'm Indian-American and in my experience this has been entirely non-existent so this article kinda baffles me. I've been asked whether I'm vegetarian before, but always in the context of grabbing food (respecting dietary preferences), and certainly haven't noticed any discrimination after saying that I'm not. I worked in SF for a year and currently in Seattle. Have several Indian friends/colleagues aswell and not once have I ever heard caste brought up
- shitlord 3y ago
  I was born in the US, and my parents immigrated from India. I encountered this once at a tech company in Seattle. My team's previous manager left the org, so we were assigned a new one. On our very first 1:1 meeting, he wasn't interested in discussing projects, but he kept asking all of these bizarre personal questions. At first, I didn't understand, but it became clear later on.
  - geephroh 3y ago
    I'm really sorry that you experienced this. If you're still in Seattle and it ever happens again, know that caste discrimination is now formally banned as of March of this year. Please spread the word that claims can be filed with the city's Office for Civil Rights.[1] 1. https://www.seattle.gov/civilrights/civil-rights-enforcement/new-laws-and-amendments/caste https://www.seattle.gov/civilrights/civil-rights-enforcement...
crop_rotation 3y ago
This sounds like someone who has no idea about India. Being vegetarian tells you nothing about somoene's caste at all, either by choice or birth. You might make a wild guess but it has very less chance of being correct. Vegetarianism permeates throughout society in both upper and lower classes. Asking someone's village name to know anything is laughable. There are about a million villages in India, and most villages have mixed caste populations, so this is just so laughably absurd. Even if you meet someone in a local city, you will not get to know their caste by their village name, let alone meeting someone in a big Indian city or the US. Asking someone's village gives you same amount of information as doing Math.random(1e6). > see if the person is wearing a Juneau This is something that has almost stopped and at this point almost nobody wears it since it involves a lot of extra effort. It would be very very long ago when the % of peopling wearing it was high enough. > Higher-caste Indians will also search social media accounts to ascertain a job candidate’s religious views or diet. This again sounds like a handway statement that is somehow intended to show how one can easily find someone else's caste.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

madcaptenor 3y ago

I'd imagine you can get some amount of information from a first name as well.

isanjay 3y ago
No just religion.
serialNumber 3y ago
Usually not - maybe if the name is super traditional, however first names are pretty much equal across castes.
unmole 3y ago
Why would you imagine that?
- madcaptenor 3y ago
  There's definitely some correlation between name and socioeconomic status in a lot of cultures. I'm surprised to hear that's not so in India.
  - Ar-Curunir 3y ago
    It definitely is. Brahmin names might be more Sanskritic, for example.
    - unmole 3y ago
      First names are defined more by fashion than anything else.
      - Ar-Curunir 3y ago
        Perhaps, but definitely people from different communities and castes are influenced by different fashion trends.

jccalhoun 3y ago

I would guess there are a ton of ways to tell what caste someone is. Where they are from, accent, one article I remember reading mentioned a person was Buddhist not Hindu and keeping that secret to avoid caste discrimination https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidden-caste-system/ https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidde...

rhuru 3y ago

Indian government offers different benefits to different castes. For example say you murder someone. The victim's caste will play a big role in how you are treated. If you kill a person belonging to so called "lower caste", your punishment would higher and bar for evidence much lower. If you belong to certain castes then you get government jobs and promotions on priority bases. Upto 50% of jobs are reserved based on caste. Around 70% of admissions in colleges are done by looking at your caste. GOVERNMENT insists on knowing your caste.