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It took 5mins between people starting switching to EVs in somewhat-significant numbers and the attacks on EVs beginning. "Zero engine emissions?... but muh bra

It took 5mins between people starting switching to EVs in somewhat-significant numbers and the attacks on EVs beginning. "Zero engine emissions?... but muh brake dust! they're too heavy! battery fires! cobalt mines! fuck cars, even EVs!" Yeah, it'd be nice to see more smaller lighter EVs particularly in urban areas, including bikes+scooters, maybe mini-cars like a modernized Sinclair C5 even. But the reality is that we need large vans and trucks to deliver goods and services, and great big heavy vehicles will always be a major hazard to small light ones, and it's near-impossible to segregate them in existing towns+cities due to lack of space.

tristor 3y ago
The problem is that nearly all of the EVs on the market are shitty crossovers. I am actively in the market for an EV, I refuse to buy a crossover, and I require all-wheel drive. Pray tell, /other than Tesla/ who is making anything that fits these requirements? Answer: Nobody. Tesla is the only EV company that seems to give a shit about making a normal-ass car you can drive outside of California where we have snow. Unfortunately, I don't want to buy a Tesla for other reasons, but in the end that may be what I end up getting because there are effectively no other real options. It's absurdly stupid to buy an EV that is a brick on wheels.
- gogusrl 3y ago
  The Kia EV6 might be a reasonable replacement. All wheel drive electric sedan which gets pretty nice reviews.
  - tristor 3y ago
    > The Kia EV6 might be a reasonable replacement. All wheel drive electric sedan which gets pretty nice reviews. The Kia EV6 is a crossover... Kia/Hyundai seem to be making some of the better "normal" EVs (not luxury vehicles), but have other issues. Unfortunately they're all crossovers.
    - duped 3y ago
      Have you tried driving one? They drive very differently than your typical crossover and are much lower to the ground. They're more like a compact crossover or hatchback sedan. Same for the Ioniq.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  Don't european manufacturers produce fully electric equivalents of their usual lines these days? All of those can be had in 4-wheel drive, say BMW, Audi etc. Those brands know how to make solid well balanced cars, good quality interior and exterior. Since we talk about cca Tesla equivalents, price points should not be shocking (they still are to me tbh).
- sgarman 3y ago
  There are a lot of non "shitty crossovers" EVs on the market right now. Just maybe not one that ticks all your boxes. With that said if you are trying to get people to buy EVs doesn't it make sense to after what consumers want? The f150 has been the best selling vehicle in america for 40 years - why would you ignore trying to electrify that? Not only for demand reasons but electrifying the larger vehicles is the best target for reducing emissions. I understand and agree with the smaller vehicle argument but if we only electrify smaller vehicles americans are not going to suddenly start buying them instead of huge vehicles as they have the last 40 years.
- czinck 3y ago
  How are you defining crossover? Not body-on-frame or more like the "lifted sedan/hatchback" like the Subaru Crosstrek or Mazda CX-30? If looking for body-on-frame, your options are really just Rivian (R1T or S1T) or F150 Lightning. If you're OK with unibody but large, there's a bunch of options that came out recently like the Audi Q8, Volvo EX-90 (even 3 row seating), BMW iX and X5, and some models from Mercedes that I can never remember the names of. All of them are all-wheel-drive.
  - tristor 3y ago
    I think you misunderstood me to think I want a crossover. I do not. The definition of a crossover is that it's a unibody chassis like a car, with car-like suspension and drivetrain, but shaped like an SUV with a similar ride height. An SUV is a truck that has an extended enclosed passenger cabin with fold-down seats. A crossover is effectively trying to replace the minivan segment, because it can't actually do any of the things an SUV can do effectively, like towing. Minivans are actually better than crossovers in pretty much every way that matters, except for their CAFE classification. My perfect vehicle would be a small AWD electric hatchback w/ sport suspension. A compact AWD electric sedan w/ sport suspension would be a close second. A bloated POS with a high center of gravity is pretty much everything that I loathe in the world.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  Why do you require all wheel drive?
  - tristor 3y ago
    I live in Colorado. I regularly drive in places that have traction laws that require you to have all wheel drive and/or snow tires (I also install snow tires in the winter, regardless) and this comes into effect sometimes in situations where I don't yet have snow tires fitted, and it's also just generally an all around good idea here.
    - thomastjeffery 3y ago
      Fair enough. Here in Utah the law is usually just for chains. All that being said, I'll be the first to admit my own overconfidence with driving my FWD Civic in the snow.
Aerroon 3y ago
The Overton window has been shifted. Before such arguments wouldn't have been entertained, now they are. For some, the banning of cars was probably the goal from the start.
amadeuspagel 3y ago
This is not an attack, it is simply charging cars for the damage and danger that they cause.

tristor 3y ago

The problem is that nearly all of the EVs on the market are shitty crossovers. I am actively in the market for an EV, I refuse to buy a crossover, and I require all-wheel drive. Pray tell, /other than Tesla/ who is making anything that fits these requirements? Answer: Nobody. Tesla is the only EV company that seems to give a shit about making a normal-ass car you can drive outside of California where we have snow. Unfortunately, I don't want to buy a Tesla for other reasons, but in the end that may be what I end up getting because there are effectively no other real options. It's absurdly stupid to buy an EV that is a brick on wheels.

gogusrl 3y ago
The Kia EV6 might be a reasonable replacement. All wheel drive electric sedan which gets pretty nice reviews.
- tristor 3y ago
  > The Kia EV6 might be a reasonable replacement. All wheel drive electric sedan which gets pretty nice reviews. The Kia EV6 is a crossover... Kia/Hyundai seem to be making some of the better "normal" EVs (not luxury vehicles), but have other issues. Unfortunately they're all crossovers.
  - duped 3y ago
    Have you tried driving one? They drive very differently than your typical crossover and are much lower to the ground. They're more like a compact crossover or hatchback sedan. Same for the Ioniq.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Don't european manufacturers produce fully electric equivalents of their usual lines these days? All of those can be had in 4-wheel drive, say BMW, Audi etc. Those brands know how to make solid well balanced cars, good quality interior and exterior. Since we talk about cca Tesla equivalents, price points should not be shocking (they still are to me tbh).
sgarman 3y ago
There are a lot of non "shitty crossovers" EVs on the market right now. Just maybe not one that ticks all your boxes. With that said if you are trying to get people to buy EVs doesn't it make sense to after what consumers want? The f150 has been the best selling vehicle in america for 40 years - why would you ignore trying to electrify that? Not only for demand reasons but electrifying the larger vehicles is the best target for reducing emissions. I understand and agree with the smaller vehicle argument but if we only electrify smaller vehicles americans are not going to suddenly start buying them instead of huge vehicles as they have the last 40 years.
czinck 3y ago
How are you defining crossover? Not body-on-frame or more like the "lifted sedan/hatchback" like the Subaru Crosstrek or Mazda CX-30? If looking for body-on-frame, your options are really just Rivian (R1T or S1T) or F150 Lightning. If you're OK with unibody but large, there's a bunch of options that came out recently like the Audi Q8, Volvo EX-90 (even 3 row seating), BMW iX and X5, and some models from Mercedes that I can never remember the names of. All of them are all-wheel-drive.
- tristor 3y ago
  I think you misunderstood me to think I want a crossover. I do not. The definition of a crossover is that it's a unibody chassis like a car, with car-like suspension and drivetrain, but shaped like an SUV with a similar ride height. An SUV is a truck that has an extended enclosed passenger cabin with fold-down seats. A crossover is effectively trying to replace the minivan segment, because it can't actually do any of the things an SUV can do effectively, like towing. Minivans are actually better than crossovers in pretty much every way that matters, except for their CAFE classification. My perfect vehicle would be a small AWD electric hatchback w/ sport suspension. A compact AWD electric sedan w/ sport suspension would be a close second. A bloated POS with a high center of gravity is pretty much everything that I loathe in the world.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
Why do you require all wheel drive?
- tristor 3y ago
  I live in Colorado. I regularly drive in places that have traction laws that require you to have all wheel drive and/or snow tires (I also install snow tires in the winter, regardless) and this comes into effect sometimes in situations where I don't yet have snow tires fitted, and it's also just generally an all around good idea here.
  - thomastjeffery 3y ago
    Fair enough. Here in Utah the law is usually just for chains. All that being said, I'll be the first to admit my own overconfidence with driving my FWD Civic in the snow.

Aerroon 3y ago

The Overton window has been shifted. Before such arguments wouldn't have been entertained, now they are. For some, the banning of cars was probably the goal from the start.

amadeuspagel 3y ago

This is not an attack, it is simply charging cars for the damage and danger that they cause.