6 ms·

Looking up comparable ICE cars to a Model Y, google tells me Audi SQ5, BMW X3 M40i, and Mercedes-Benz GLC43. Their curb weights in lbs are: Model Y: 4,555 SQ

Looking up comparable ICE cars to a Model Y, google tells me Audi SQ5, BMW X3 M40i, and Mercedes-Benz GLC43. Their curb weights in lbs are: Model Y: 4,555 SQ5: 4,288 M40i: 4,392 GLC43: 4,233 So, yes, a model Y is heavier, but only by about 250 lbs. At a 4th power that could be an extra 30% damage compared to an ICE, but even the lightest SUV here is doing something like 3.5x the damage compared to a Honda Civic. So, if you think road damage is a valid concern, electric cars aren't particularly special - SUVs in general should be a bigger worry.

dingnuts 3y ago
>even the lightest SUV here is doing something like 3.5x the damage compared to a Honda Civic this is crazy to consider when you know that parents with three children in car seats cannot find a sedan that can hold three car seats, and wagons disappeared to be replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards. So it could be argued that the emission standards are the cause of this extra wear, which is additionally ironic when you consider asphalt is an oil product
- Zak 3y ago
  > wagons disappeared to be replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards I think that's only half-true. In the US, people weren't buying many wagons when they were available. For the majority of people who don't use their SUVs off road, this seems irrational. I've heard a number of people say that the higher seating position makes them feel safer, though that feeling is not reality-based.
  - delecti 3y ago
    I think it's a tragedy of the commons situation. Driving an SUV feels safer because there are more other vehicles you can see over to keep appraised of your surroundings, but that also makes it harder for the drivers of those other vehicles.
  - redundantly 3y ago
    > I've heard a number of people say that the higher seating position makes them feel safer, though that feeling is not reality-based. It is based in reality, albeit a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. As more and more taller cars (large SUVs and pickup trucks) appear on the road the more dangerous it is for smaller cars. The crumple zones on a compact or sedan don't do much good when the front and rear bumpers of SUVs and trucks clear the hoods of smaller cars, effectively putting the bumper at eye level.
    - Zak 3y ago
      > * the front and rear bumpers of SUVs and trucks clear the hoods of smaller cars, effectively putting the bumper at eye level* I expected that to be illegal, but it seems that it is not in the US. A quick look suggests that for typical unmodified SUVs the issue affects repair costs more than occupant injuries. Homebuilt monster trucks are, of course another issue.
  - jandrewrogers 3y ago
    SUVs aren't made for off-road [0], the functional ones are made for poor road conditions. Subaru has targeted that market segment quite successfully with light, low-cost cars with AWD and high ground clearance. In some parts of the US, especially the western half, an AWD with high ground clearance is often a practical requirement due to the geography and weather risks even if you never go off-road. [0] The original "sport-utility vehicles" were built for off-road usage and had 4WD but that hasn't been true of almost anything marketed as an SUV for decades.
    - Arrath 3y ago
      > In some parts of the US, especially the western half, an AWD with high ground clearance is often a practical requirement due to the geography and weather risks even if you never go off-road. This is exactly why Subarus are massively popular in Alaska.
  - ricardobayes 3y ago
    Not sure about that. For a long time, the go-to "dad car" was a wagon, with wooden siding.
  - parasense 3y ago
    > For the majority of people who don't use their SUVs off road, this seems irrational. Because that's a kind of regulatory fiction, right there. So let's cut the crap! For the majority of the so-called SUV market the "s" in SUV is a long lost myth, and if we're being honest then it's just Utility-Vehicle (UV). But you say they sit higher off the road, perhaps that's technically correct, but actually false when compared to off-road vehicles. But we've already acknowledged SUV's are not really off road vehicles, but rather normal passenger vehicles with normal road tires, normal suspensions, and lower center's of gravity. The Model-y is really just a slightly taller/longer version of the model-3. But how much higher, well if you look at the ground clearance, then it's only ~1 inches higher off the ground. But overall the vehicle is taller, will a larger overhead canopy, and the seats are places over booster blocks to raise the eye-level higher. It's really an illusion, the Model-y is really just a sedan, that technically meets the minimum requirements to say it's an SUV. You can safely consider the modern SUV as the equivalence of old-school station-wagons. If it waddles like a duck... quacks like a duck... you might be dealling with ducks my dude.
- webdood90 3y ago
  or is it having children?
  - zqfm 3y ago
    nope
  - asow92 3y ago
    Population replacement rate is at least 2.1 kids per couple. What are you suggesting here, bud?
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  This is not true, at least not in Europe. Wagons/sedans didn't disappear, we drive recent BMW 5 series and there are plenty of others (Audi A6, Skoda Superb, VW Passat, Mercedes and so on and on). Its as wide as it gets and you can buy official or unofficial conversion of back seat into 3-same-seat row. You just click a conversion layer into ISOFIX from what I recall. It doesn't magically make back row wider, so you can't fit comfortably 3 taller adults regardless of seat arrangements, but 3 child seats are easy. It then has exactly same space as usual 3-seaters like Seat Alhambra, its VW equivalent etc. but you drive much better, more powerful and also safer car (ie frontal crumple zones). If you think about 3 solid wide seats for 3 adults, such a car wouldn't fit in regular parking spot in most EU/Switzerland and struggled on narrower roads, yeah we normally don't do that kind of stuff here since roads and parking spaces are shared among everybody.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    "Wagons" are Chrysler Voyager, Renault Scenic, Citroën Picasso, Volkswagen Golf Plus, Toyota Prius+ and those have almost entirely disappeared (Golf Plus and Prius Plus aren't made anymore; Picasso will disappear this year, etc). BMW series 5, Audi A6 etc are sedans. These are strongly declining too; SUVs make more about 40% of sales of new vehicles in Europe.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      The Audi A6 Allroad is definitely a wagon. BMW had a 5-series wagon but stopped selling it in the US a little over a decade ago.
    - felixfbecker 3y ago
      The Audi A6 comes in both a sedan and wagon (hatch back) variant (named "Avant"), I would assume saiya-jin was referring to the wagon variant. The only wagon variants sold in the US are the "allroad quattro" variant and the RS6 though.
      - jeroen 3y ago
        Same for the 5-series, the Passat, and others mentioned. Those are available as wagons in Europe and still seem to sell well, based on what I see on the roads.
- theshrike79 3y ago
  A side note: there are special 3 or 4 seater car seats that are one integrated section and can fit on a normal sedan's back seat. "Multimac" is the first brand that came up on Google: https://thetravelhack.com/blog/multimac-car-seat-review/ https://thetravelhack.com/blog/multimac-car-seat-review/
- betenoire 3y ago
  I'm not sure about this, there are still many wagons out there. They don't have those classic wood panels and tacky colors, and the backwards facing rear seats are gone, but aren't these Outbacks and similarly shaped vehicles wagons? Regarding car seats, they are just THAT much bigger these days. My family had 3 car seats in a rabbit, in the early 80s.
- xp84 3y ago
  > parents with three children in car seats cannot find a sedan that can hold three car seats, This is a categorically untrue myth. Lots of car seats are stupidly wide thrones, but there is no reason you have to buy those ridiculous things. Diono makes a full line of car seats which fit 3-across in any midsize car. They're even cheaper than a lot of seats from the biggest brands, starting under $200. [1] People are buying SUVs because they want them and because we've made it attractive to do so: * Externalize excess road wear costs onto all taxpayers due to gas tax * Overall trends contributed to pathetic selection of good sedans * Finally, Reasonable fears that since "everyone else" is driving 3-ton monstrosities, perhaps they won't be safe in a car 5 feet shorter than the truck that hits them. It won't be easy to reverse any of this, since the only lever is to replace gas tax with a fair road tax like this Norway one -- the rest of them are functions of the trend. Sadly, anything that raises taxes on a majority of Americans (those who drive big SUV things) would be political suicide. [1] https://store.diono.com/radian-3r/ https://store.diono.com/radian-3r/ (No affiliation with them, though I've purchased 4 of these so far personally.)
  - giantg2 3y ago
    "Externalize excess road wear costs onto all taxpayers due to gas tax" This is true for electric or hybrid, but in general, heavier ICE vehicles will have lower economy which means they buy more fuel and pay more fuel taxes. In many states trucks cost more to register too. So it's probably pretty close to proportional.
  - jonhohle 3y ago
    If a gas tax was replaced wholesale with a mileage tax I don't think I'd be too upset, however, how do you deal with out of state use, work vehicles that spend most of their time on job sites as opposed to roads, when and how is it assessed and collected, etc. If a mileage tax was added without repealing the gas tax, I don't think it would go over to well. Historically gas was a reasonable proxy for road use, but that is going to be increasingly untrue. It's reasonable to see EVs as a tax dodge against road use taxation that can primarily be taken advantage of by the well-off, but in AZ it's $100-$200 a year. Either give EVs a 1¢/mile use tax or give everyone the tax and remove the gas tax, or drop them both and become more efficient ;-).
- bombcar 3y ago
  The wagon was replaced by the minivan and the minivan is dying. https://diono.com/diono-journal/the-original-and-the-best-3-across-car-seat-meet-the-diono-radian https://diono.com/diono-journal/the-original-and-the-best-3-... solves the three car seat problem even in a smallish sedan.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Quite a few of my whitewater paddling friends--who often have to shuttle people--prefer minivans over 3-row SUVs but, as you say, minvans have largely been replaced by SUVs which are IMO not really ideal if you regularly fill up the seats. (Even the best/biggest ones I've been in still require something of a do si do between people in the second and the third row.)
    - bombcar 3y ago
      It’s especially hard to find a nine seat SUV anymore - I don’t know if any offhand with a bench front seat. The Kia Carnival seats 11 in Asia …
      - ghaff 3y ago
        I suspect that, in the US, there's a pretty strong bias to maximizing the comfort for the first and second person rather than being able to squeeze one more passenger in.
        bombcar 3y ago
        Exactly this. All vehicles are sold to people who buy new vehicles and that cohort is more alike than they’d like to admit. Commercial vehicles still have some variation because the purchaser is not the driver.
- otikik 3y ago
  > replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards. That's the first time I hear this argument. I thought that SUVs replaced them because car makers found that they can justify a bigger price on a bigger, heavier vehicles. Intuitively an SUV should emit more (heavier vehicle, more wind resistance). I know that John Deere used EPA emissions standards as a smoke screen for them of their unwilling to allow third-party repairs on their tractors. Perhaps they are using the same maneuver here?
  - rurounijones 3y ago
    > That's the first time I hear this argument. SUVs and the like exploit a loophole in various standards like fuel efficiency requirements because they are not "cars" but "Light trucks" and therefore those standards don't apply to them; which makes them cheaper to design and build for automotive companies. The "Light trucks" category was supposed to be used for light commercial vehicles, not personal vehicles but then the law of unintended consequences had a love-child with profit seeking corporations and their linguistic games. Literally the only reason SUVs and trucks became popular is because the automotive manufacturers could make more money doing it that way and convinced the consumers to buy them. NotJustBikes did a good intro video on the subject. * https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-loophole-that-supersized-cars/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-lo... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo
  - deadbunny 3y ago
    They do have more emissions, they are however no longer classed as cars but "light trucks" which have different emission standards (much higher than cars).
- jonhohle 3y ago
  That's only true for triplet infants that require bassinet-style seats and even that might not be the case if you look hard enough. I had twins and a 3-year old in the back seat of an 1990 Infiniti G20. There are slim car seats specifically made for three in the back. It's tight, but it works. I agree about wagons though. Subaru still makes them. The Lexus CT200h is pretty much a wagon. It would be nice to see more "crossovers" that took more from the sedan side, however, none of the modern ones have jump seats except (maybe ironically) the Tesla Model 3. We've graduated to four kids which eliminates the vast majority of vehicles from our set of options. Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, and GM all make ≥6 passenger vehicles that are not-minivans, but the options are very limited and put you into the SUV category.
  - piperswe 3y ago
    Lexus discontinued the CT in the US several years ago (globally last year), and it's a hatchback (not a wagon).
chociej 3y ago
Notably, you've chosen 3 luxury ICE models, and luxury cars are another heavier-than-average group.
- gxs 3y ago
  Exactly. Yeah, not to mention, the SUVs he's comparing are especially large. Comparing passenger cars illustrates the point as the model S weighs almost the same as the Model Y. Mercedes E-class weighs 3,700 lbs compared to a model S which..still weighs 4500 lbs. And no, I would not compare a model S to an s-class.
- MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
  True. A better consideration is the Nissan Rogue at ~3500 lbs. That's a 1000 lb. difference, which is more. But the GP didn't bother to mention the road-wear differences between, for example, the Ford Edge and Ford Escape, which also have a 1000 lb. difference between them. So it sounds disingenuous to single out EVs here.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I don't think the typical Tesla Model Y buyer is likely cross-shopping against a Rogue. Unless they're dead-set on an EV, they're much more likely cross-shopping the Model Y ($48K base MSRP) against a luxury ($57K base, $62K base, $67K base) SUV than an economy ($27K base MSRP) SUV. If they are dead-set on an EV, they might cross-shop against the Ariya ($43K base, but also 4323 lbs).
ajmurmann 3y ago
Meanwhile the Rivian SUV clocks in at 7,068lb! Edit: 7klbs is also the magical number where the tax write-off goes up by ~$10k. So there is incentive to keep it above that weight. Public pays multiple times: reduced tax revenue, higher energy usage/emissions and higher road deg. Complete insanity!
elil17 3y ago
As much as I hate SUVs of all types, road damage is not an issue for them. The axle weight of a fully-loaded 18-wheeler is like 8 times greater than that for an SUV, meaning they are dealing 4,096 times more damage to the road.
the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
> So, if you think road damage is a valid concern, electric cars aren't particularly special - SUVs in general should be a bigger worry. If you look into people's buying choices I think EVs actually do make it worse quite a bit. For instance we are going to soon trade our minivan (1.7t, 3,700lb) to an ID.Buzz (2.5t, 5,000lb). And even officially that car is the replacement for the car we currently have. If you go from a VW Golf (1.3t, 2,800lb) to an ID.3 (1.9t, 4.100lb) you can see that it's not helped by picking a smaller EV.
davewritescode 3y ago
It's not exactly fair to compare a bloated luxury model with what's fairly described as a minimalist car. Compare a BMW 330i with a an i4 and you'll get a much better idea of the battery penalty involved, it's closer to half a ton. I do agree with you that large SUVs are the problem but EV SUVs are really worrying. Rivian's trucks are over 3 tons and the new Hummer EV is nearly 5 tons!

dingnuts 3y ago

>even the lightest SUV here is doing something like 3.5x the damage compared to a Honda Civic this is crazy to consider when you know that parents with three children in car seats cannot find a sedan that can hold three car seats, and wagons disappeared to be replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards. So it could be argued that the emission standards are the cause of this extra wear, which is additionally ironic when you consider asphalt is an oil product

Zak 3y ago
> wagons disappeared to be replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards I think that's only half-true. In the US, people weren't buying many wagons when they were available. For the majority of people who don't use their SUVs off road, this seems irrational. I've heard a number of people say that the higher seating position makes them feel safer, though that feeling is not reality-based.
- delecti 3y ago
  I think it's a tragedy of the commons situation. Driving an SUV feels safer because there are more other vehicles you can see over to keep appraised of your surroundings, but that also makes it harder for the drivers of those other vehicles.
- redundantly 3y ago
  > I've heard a number of people say that the higher seating position makes them feel safer, though that feeling is not reality-based. It is based in reality, albeit a kind of self fulfilling prophecy. As more and more taller cars (large SUVs and pickup trucks) appear on the road the more dangerous it is for smaller cars. The crumple zones on a compact or sedan don't do much good when the front and rear bumpers of SUVs and trucks clear the hoods of smaller cars, effectively putting the bumper at eye level.
  - Zak 3y ago
    > * the front and rear bumpers of SUVs and trucks clear the hoods of smaller cars, effectively putting the bumper at eye level* I expected that to be illegal, but it seems that it is not in the US. A quick look suggests that for typical unmodified SUVs the issue affects repair costs more than occupant injuries. Homebuilt monster trucks are, of course another issue.
- jandrewrogers 3y ago
  SUVs aren't made for off-road [0], the functional ones are made for poor road conditions. Subaru has targeted that market segment quite successfully with light, low-cost cars with AWD and high ground clearance. In some parts of the US, especially the western half, an AWD with high ground clearance is often a practical requirement due to the geography and weather risks even if you never go off-road. [0] The original "sport-utility vehicles" were built for off-road usage and had 4WD but that hasn't been true of almost anything marketed as an SUV for decades.
  - Arrath 3y ago
    > In some parts of the US, especially the western half, an AWD with high ground clearance is often a practical requirement due to the geography and weather risks even if you never go off-road. This is exactly why Subarus are massively popular in Alaska.
- ricardobayes 3y ago
  Not sure about that. For a long time, the go-to "dad car" was a wagon, with wooden siding.
- parasense 3y ago
  > For the majority of people who don't use their SUVs off road, this seems irrational. Because that's a kind of regulatory fiction, right there. So let's cut the crap! For the majority of the so-called SUV market the "s" in SUV is a long lost myth, and if we're being honest then it's just Utility-Vehicle (UV). But you say they sit higher off the road, perhaps that's technically correct, but actually false when compared to off-road vehicles. But we've already acknowledged SUV's are not really off road vehicles, but rather normal passenger vehicles with normal road tires, normal suspensions, and lower center's of gravity. The Model-y is really just a slightly taller/longer version of the model-3. But how much higher, well if you look at the ground clearance, then it's only ~1 inches higher off the ground. But overall the vehicle is taller, will a larger overhead canopy, and the seats are places over booster blocks to raise the eye-level higher. It's really an illusion, the Model-y is really just a sedan, that technically meets the minimum requirements to say it's an SUV. You can safely consider the modern SUV as the equivalence of old-school station-wagons. If it waddles like a duck... quacks like a duck... you might be dealling with ducks my dude.
webdood90 3y ago
or is it having children?
- zqfm 3y ago
  nope
- asow92 3y ago
  Population replacement rate is at least 2.1 kids per couple. What are you suggesting here, bud?
saiya-jin 3y ago
This is not true, at least not in Europe. Wagons/sedans didn't disappear, we drive recent BMW 5 series and there are plenty of others (Audi A6, Skoda Superb, VW Passat, Mercedes and so on and on). Its as wide as it gets and you can buy official or unofficial conversion of back seat into 3-same-seat row. You just click a conversion layer into ISOFIX from what I recall. It doesn't magically make back row wider, so you can't fit comfortably 3 taller adults regardless of seat arrangements, but 3 child seats are easy. It then has exactly same space as usual 3-seaters like Seat Alhambra, its VW equivalent etc. but you drive much better, more powerful and also safer car (ie frontal crumple zones). If you think about 3 solid wide seats for 3 adults, such a car wouldn't fit in regular parking spot in most EU/Switzerland and struggled on narrower roads, yeah we normally don't do that kind of stuff here since roads and parking spaces are shared among everybody.
- wazoox 3y ago
  "Wagons" are Chrysler Voyager, Renault Scenic, Citroën Picasso, Volkswagen Golf Plus, Toyota Prius+ and those have almost entirely disappeared (Golf Plus and Prius Plus aren't made anymore; Picasso will disappear this year, etc). BMW series 5, Audi A6 etc are sedans. These are strongly declining too; SUVs make more about 40% of sales of new vehicles in Europe.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    The Audi A6 Allroad is definitely a wagon. BMW had a 5-series wagon but stopped selling it in the US a little over a decade ago.
  - felixfbecker 3y ago
    The Audi A6 comes in both a sedan and wagon (hatch back) variant (named "Avant"), I would assume saiya-jin was referring to the wagon variant. The only wagon variants sold in the US are the "allroad quattro" variant and the RS6 though.
    - jeroen 3y ago
      Same for the 5-series, the Passat, and others mentioned. Those are available as wagons in Europe and still seem to sell well, based on what I see on the roads.
theshrike79 3y ago
A side note: there are special 3 or 4 seater car seats that are one integrated section and can fit on a normal sedan's back seat. "Multimac" is the first brand that came up on Google: https://thetravelhack.com/blog/multimac-car-seat-review/ https://thetravelhack.com/blog/multimac-car-seat-review/
betenoire 3y ago
I'm not sure about this, there are still many wagons out there. They don't have those classic wood panels and tacky colors, and the backwards facing rear seats are gone, but aren't these Outbacks and similarly shaped vehicles wagons? Regarding car seats, they are just THAT much bigger these days. My family had 3 car seats in a rabbit, in the early 80s.
xp84 3y ago
> parents with three children in car seats cannot find a sedan that can hold three car seats, This is a categorically untrue myth. Lots of car seats are stupidly wide thrones, but there is no reason you have to buy those ridiculous things. Diono makes a full line of car seats which fit 3-across in any midsize car. They're even cheaper than a lot of seats from the biggest brands, starting under $200. [1] People are buying SUVs because they want them and because we've made it attractive to do so: * Externalize excess road wear costs onto all taxpayers due to gas tax * Overall trends contributed to pathetic selection of good sedans * Finally, Reasonable fears that since "everyone else" is driving 3-ton monstrosities, perhaps they won't be safe in a car 5 feet shorter than the truck that hits them. It won't be easy to reverse any of this, since the only lever is to replace gas tax with a fair road tax like this Norway one -- the rest of them are functions of the trend. Sadly, anything that raises taxes on a majority of Americans (those who drive big SUV things) would be political suicide. [1] https://store.diono.com/radian-3r/ https://store.diono.com/radian-3r/ (No affiliation with them, though I've purchased 4 of these so far personally.)
- giantg2 3y ago
  "Externalize excess road wear costs onto all taxpayers due to gas tax" This is true for electric or hybrid, but in general, heavier ICE vehicles will have lower economy which means they buy more fuel and pay more fuel taxes. In many states trucks cost more to register too. So it's probably pretty close to proportional.
- jonhohle 3y ago
  If a gas tax was replaced wholesale with a mileage tax I don't think I'd be too upset, however, how do you deal with out of state use, work vehicles that spend most of their time on job sites as opposed to roads, when and how is it assessed and collected, etc. If a mileage tax was added without repealing the gas tax, I don't think it would go over to well. Historically gas was a reasonable proxy for road use, but that is going to be increasingly untrue. It's reasonable to see EVs as a tax dodge against road use taxation that can primarily be taken advantage of by the well-off, but in AZ it's $100-$200 a year. Either give EVs a 1¢/mile use tax or give everyone the tax and remove the gas tax, or drop them both and become more efficient ;-).
bombcar 3y ago
The wagon was replaced by the minivan and the minivan is dying. https://diono.com/diono-journal/the-original-and-the-best-3-across-car-seat-meet-the-diono-radian https://diono.com/diono-journal/the-original-and-the-best-3-... solves the three car seat problem even in a smallish sedan.
- ghaff 3y ago
  Quite a few of my whitewater paddling friends--who often have to shuttle people--prefer minivans over 3-row SUVs but, as you say, minvans have largely been replaced by SUVs which are IMO not really ideal if you regularly fill up the seats. (Even the best/biggest ones I've been in still require something of a do si do between people in the second and the third row.)
  - bombcar 3y ago
    It’s especially hard to find a nine seat SUV anymore - I don’t know if any offhand with a bench front seat. The Kia Carnival seats 11 in Asia …
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I suspect that, in the US, there's a pretty strong bias to maximizing the comfort for the first and second person rather than being able to squeeze one more passenger in.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        Exactly this. All vehicles are sold to people who buy new vehicles and that cohort is more alike than they’d like to admit. Commercial vehicles still have some variation because the purchaser is not the driver.
otikik 3y ago
> replaced by SUVs because of... EPA emissions standards. That's the first time I hear this argument. I thought that SUVs replaced them because car makers found that they can justify a bigger price on a bigger, heavier vehicles. Intuitively an SUV should emit more (heavier vehicle, more wind resistance). I know that John Deere used EPA emissions standards as a smoke screen for them of their unwilling to allow third-party repairs on their tractors. Perhaps they are using the same maneuver here?
- rurounijones 3y ago
  > That's the first time I hear this argument. SUVs and the like exploit a loophole in various standards like fuel efficiency requirements because they are not "cars" but "Light trucks" and therefore those standards don't apply to them; which makes them cheaper to design and build for automotive companies. The "Light trucks" category was supposed to be used for light commercial vehicles, not personal vehicles but then the law of unintended consequences had a love-child with profit seeking corporations and their linguistic games. Literally the only reason SUVs and trucks became popular is because the automotive manufacturers could make more money doing it that way and convinced the consumers to buy them. NotJustBikes did a good intro video on the subject. * https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-loophole-that-supersized-cars/ https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-wants-to-close-the-suv-lo... * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jN7mSXMruEo
- deadbunny 3y ago
  They do have more emissions, they are however no longer classed as cars but "light trucks" which have different emission standards (much higher than cars).
jonhohle 3y ago
That's only true for triplet infants that require bassinet-style seats and even that might not be the case if you look hard enough. I had twins and a 3-year old in the back seat of an 1990 Infiniti G20. There are slim car seats specifically made for three in the back. It's tight, but it works. I agree about wagons though. Subaru still makes them. The Lexus CT200h is pretty much a wagon. It would be nice to see more "crossovers" that took more from the sedan side, however, none of the modern ones have jump seats except (maybe ironically) the Tesla Model 3. We've graduated to four kids which eliminates the vast majority of vehicles from our set of options. Kia, Hyundai, Toyota, and GM all make ≥6 passenger vehicles that are not-minivans, but the options are very limited and put you into the SUV category.
- piperswe 3y ago
  Lexus discontinued the CT in the US several years ago (globally last year), and it's a hatchback (not a wagon).

chociej 3y ago

Notably, you've chosen 3 luxury ICE models, and luxury cars are another heavier-than-average group.

gxs 3y ago
Exactly. Yeah, not to mention, the SUVs he's comparing are especially large. Comparing passenger cars illustrates the point as the model S weighs almost the same as the Model Y. Mercedes E-class weighs 3,700 lbs compared to a model S which..still weighs 4500 lbs. And no, I would not compare a model S to an s-class.
MetaWhirledPeas 3y ago
True. A better consideration is the Nissan Rogue at ~3500 lbs. That's a 1000 lb. difference, which is more. But the GP didn't bother to mention the road-wear differences between, for example, the Ford Edge and Ford Escape, which also have a 1000 lb. difference between them. So it sounds disingenuous to single out EVs here.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I don't think the typical Tesla Model Y buyer is likely cross-shopping against a Rogue. Unless they're dead-set on an EV, they're much more likely cross-shopping the Model Y ($48K base MSRP) against a luxury ($57K base, $62K base, $67K base) SUV than an economy ($27K base MSRP) SUV. If they are dead-set on an EV, they might cross-shop against the Ariya ($43K base, but also 4323 lbs).

ajmurmann 3y ago

Meanwhile the Rivian SUV clocks in at 7,068lb! Edit: 7klbs is also the magical number where the tax write-off goes up by ~$10k. So there is incentive to keep it above that weight. Public pays multiple times: reduced tax revenue, higher energy usage/emissions and higher road deg. Complete insanity!

elil17 3y ago

As much as I hate SUVs of all types, road damage is not an issue for them. The axle weight of a fully-loaded 18-wheeler is like 8 times greater than that for an SUV, meaning they are dealing 4,096 times more damage to the road.

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago

> So, if you think road damage is a valid concern, electric cars aren't particularly special - SUVs in general should be a bigger worry. If you look into people's buying choices I think EVs actually do make it worse quite a bit. For instance we are going to soon trade our minivan (1.7t, 3,700lb) to an ID.Buzz (2.5t, 5,000lb). And even officially that car is the replacement for the car we currently have. If you go from a VW Golf (1.3t, 2,800lb) to an ID.3 (1.9t, 4.100lb) you can see that it's not helped by picking a smaller EV.

davewritescode 3y ago

It's not exactly fair to compare a bloated luxury model with what's fairly described as a minimalist car. Compare a BMW 330i with a an i4 and you'll get a much better idea of the battery penalty involved, it's closer to half a ton. I do agree with you that large SUVs are the problem but EV SUVs are really worrying. Rivian's trucks are over 3 tons and the new Hummer EV is nearly 5 tons!