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Russians can protest in Russia. Or at least they could, if they weren’t so suddenly averse to “politics”.

by cycrutchfield 3y ago

wombat-man 3y ago
It can be a dicey proposition there.
- cycrutchfield 3y ago
  So was protesting in Ukraine during Euromaidan. Maybe Russians can learn a thing or two from Ukrainians.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    Learn how to overthrow your government, lose several regions to a larger neighbour's invasion, become significantly poorer, and then get dragged to die on the front in a hot war against it? But at least they don't have that president they didn't like, who was an obstacle for them joining the EU. Learning things from Euromaidan is arguably why Russia is still in coherent state under so much pressure. Russians are very aware of the abyss that may open in place of an even previously super peaceful country when a revolution happens. Got three shots of that vaccine.
    - helge9210 3y ago
      Somehow the assumption is that without Euromaidan, Ukraine would still be intact and not in a war. "Not in a war" part is correct. The government was preparing to give Ukraine to Russia as a whole. Ukrainian paratroopers has an exercise in Summer 2013 to subdue an insurgency in Western Ukraine. If Russians are afraid to get to jail or get shot, they can always commit self-immolation in protest. (There was a case actually last year, but not against the war. Only against conscription.)
    - cycrutchfield 3y ago
      Nobody suggested that it was a smooth or easy path to remove yourself as a vassal state of Moscow. But in the long run, the process will likely be worth it. Russia is still in a coherent state because they’re just sending all their rural poor, ethnic minorities, and prisoners to die in Ukraine. Once they’ve sacrificed all their undesirables and need to conscript from their major cities, we will see how “non-political” Russians actually are.
      - ipaddr 3y ago
        Who do you think Ukraine is sending? Rural poor. The rich males have fled. Ukraine software developers are working abroad not shooting weapons. The US and Canada do the same. Trying to draw a line is difficult when both groups are on the same side. The rich decide on wars and the poor fight them.
        cycrutchfield 3y ago
        Ah OK. "Both sides same". You should have started your post with "But what about"
        ipaddr 3y ago
        In the end they are two sides of the same coin. If you think there are good guys and bad guys and the good guys are always on my side then I will remind you that this isn't a movie. For every action any actor took there is a reason and justification that can be made. Would Trudeau and Freeland be so pro war if Freeland and her sister owned 5 apartment buildings in Russia instead of the Ukraine? Would Biden be so pro war if his sin had dealings with Russia instead of the Ukraine? Find me a pure moral action and I'll raise you two selfish actions.
        cycrutchfield 3y ago
        Two sides of the same coin. One side is an imperialist aggressor seeking revanchism. The other side is defending their lands trying to get out from under the boot of Russian subjugation. But sure, same coin.
FredPret 3y ago
I'd be averse to protesting if flying bullets were involved too. Here in the West we have a sense of rights and freedoms that developed only after centuries of civil wars, revolutions, bloody struggles, and endless debates and propaganda. It's now baked into the Western psyche. But other areas aren't so lucky, and some are still in the above process.
- cycrutchfield 3y ago
  Protests and revolutions happen in non-Western countries quite frequently. Let’s not absolve Russians for their apathy and subservience in this respect.
  - FredPret 3y ago
    To be fair, they just had an attempted revolution the other day, and there's been a steady stream of Putin critics meeting unlikely fates over the years. Do not underestimate the power of an oppressive government with a wide reach.
    - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
      ... A half-hearted military coup attempt by a far-right mercenary militia is not a "revolution." It's the imposition of an agenda by one anti-democratic "might makes right" entity over another. The Russian masses have been so far not only compliant, but on the whole supportive of the regime.
prasadjoglekar 3y ago
Joke from the 80s told by Regan.. apropos to who can protest what and where. https://youtu.be/9qh-1_tXeuQ?si=xX64eNLts5ksfDfw https://youtu.be/9qh-1_tXeuQ?si=xX64eNLts5ksfDfw

Russians can protest in Russia. Or at least they could, if they weren’t so suddenly averse to “politics”.

wombat-man 3y ago

It can be a dicey proposition there.

cycrutchfield 3y ago
So was protesting in Ukraine during Euromaidan. Maybe Russians can learn a thing or two from Ukrainians.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  Learn how to overthrow your government, lose several regions to a larger neighbour's invasion, become significantly poorer, and then get dragged to die on the front in a hot war against it? But at least they don't have that president they didn't like, who was an obstacle for them joining the EU. Learning things from Euromaidan is arguably why Russia is still in coherent state under so much pressure. Russians are very aware of the abyss that may open in place of an even previously super peaceful country when a revolution happens. Got three shots of that vaccine.
  - helge9210 3y ago
    Somehow the assumption is that without Euromaidan, Ukraine would still be intact and not in a war. "Not in a war" part is correct. The government was preparing to give Ukraine to Russia as a whole. Ukrainian paratroopers has an exercise in Summer 2013 to subdue an insurgency in Western Ukraine. If Russians are afraid to get to jail or get shot, they can always commit self-immolation in protest. (There was a case actually last year, but not against the war. Only against conscription.)
  - cycrutchfield 3y ago
    Nobody suggested that it was a smooth or easy path to remove yourself as a vassal state of Moscow. But in the long run, the process will likely be worth it. Russia is still in a coherent state because they’re just sending all their rural poor, ethnic minorities, and prisoners to die in Ukraine. Once they’ve sacrificed all their undesirables and need to conscript from their major cities, we will see how “non-political” Russians actually are.
    - ipaddr 3y ago
      Who do you think Ukraine is sending? Rural poor. The rich males have fled. Ukraine software developers are working abroad not shooting weapons. The US and Canada do the same. Trying to draw a line is difficult when both groups are on the same side. The rich decide on wars and the poor fight them.
      - cycrutchfield 3y ago
        Ah OK. "Both sides same". You should have started your post with "But what about"
        ipaddr 3y ago
        In the end they are two sides of the same coin. If you think there are good guys and bad guys and the good guys are always on my side then I will remind you that this isn't a movie. For every action any actor took there is a reason and justification that can be made. Would Trudeau and Freeland be so pro war if Freeland and her sister owned 5 apartment buildings in Russia instead of the Ukraine? Would Biden be so pro war if his sin had dealings with Russia instead of the Ukraine? Find me a pure moral action and I'll raise you two selfish actions.
        cycrutchfield 3y ago
        Two sides of the same coin. One side is an imperialist aggressor seeking revanchism. The other side is defending their lands trying to get out from under the boot of Russian subjugation. But sure, same coin.

FredPret 3y ago

I'd be averse to protesting if flying bullets were involved too. Here in the West we have a sense of rights and freedoms that developed only after centuries of civil wars, revolutions, bloody struggles, and endless debates and propaganda. It's now baked into the Western psyche. But other areas aren't so lucky, and some are still in the above process.

cycrutchfield 3y ago
Protests and revolutions happen in non-Western countries quite frequently. Let’s not absolve Russians for their apathy and subservience in this respect.
- FredPret 3y ago
  To be fair, they just had an attempted revolution the other day, and there's been a steady stream of Putin critics meeting unlikely fates over the years. Do not underestimate the power of an oppressive government with a wide reach.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    ... A half-hearted military coup attempt by a far-right mercenary militia is not a "revolution." It's the imposition of an agenda by one anti-democratic "might makes right" entity over another. The Russian masses have been so far not only compliant, but on the whole supportive of the regime.

prasadjoglekar 3y ago

Joke from the 80s told by Regan.. apropos to who can protest what and where. https://youtu.be/9qh-1_tXeuQ?si=xX64eNLts5ksfDfw https://youtu.be/9qh-1_tXeuQ?si=xX64eNLts5ksfDfw