3 ms·

> if we hadn't turned everything into a fucking web-app It's rich to hear this used as a defense of any corporation. Everything is a web app now because nobody

> if we hadn't turned everything into a fucking web-app It's rich to hear this used as a defense of any corporation. Everything is a web app now because nobody got their act together to ship a true "write once, ship anywhere" platform. Microsoft smugly profited off this in the short term with Windows, and Apple used it as an excuse to double-down on their proprietary SDKs. It's obvious why everything is a webapp; what's the realistic alternative? Developing native apps for every platform on one device isn't even feasible nowadays. Then you'd need the developer subscriptions, a cross-platform app architecture and the willingness to write n number of UI mockups, where n is the number of target platforms you intend to hit. It's a veritable waste of time to do anything else.

dijit 3y ago
Situation is not better on the desktop, it's just ironically not as annoying because of the insane dominance of Windows.
- smoldesu 3y ago
  It's not better anywhere. That's the problem, everything is a game of compromise and when you try to fix things for yourself a big company gives you the stink-eye. The web is the last place left where developers feel they have freedom, which should make us all feel very sad considering they run a whole-ass computer that they effectively ignore because of arbitrary restrictions.
  - dijit 3y ago
    > The web is the last place left where developers feel they have freedom Come on, we have excellent open computing platforms; it's just not where the money is right now. Nobody can see passed their nose for profits though so we end up with lowest common denominator everything: which forces you to run a whole code interpreter on everything. Apple said "no, you can't" and that's where the money is, so you had (and continue to have) a choice and your business chooses to use it. So, you have to play by those rules. I mean, I'm not taking a stand here; despite people believing that I'm defending apple. You don't get the sit around though and reap the benefits of the system they built (and developers helped build) while simultaneously trying to tear it down. They set the rules, you all agreed to play by them; so why are we complaining? If you actually care you would make programs on one of the many open standards platforms which in turn would turn them into more attractive platforms as the ecosystem improved. But nobody does, everyone just wants the money now.
    - smoldesu 3y ago
      Largely, I don't disagree with you. Apple's stance is entirely business-oriented. My original point isn't taking a stand here either; this is just why native apps suck and why people disregard them to make Electron apps. We both seem to agree that business is the core concern. Apple is at least complicit in the status-quo as a vendor of native app SDKs, and it's something they could probably fix with the right initiative. At the business layer, they have no motivation to fix this issue. On an individual level, it's a black hole of annoyance, confusion and hand-wavey abstraction as to why certain things are off-limits or why certain apps aren't on iPhone. Treating your userbase as a hostage situation is an obvious ploy, and one I can't encourage even to fix another problem. If we rely on the altruism of businesses to fix our market problems, then we are subject to their whims when they want to change things for themselves. If we can both agree that Apple can and does make decisions that harm their users, then we're basically on the same page. I want to scrutinize that harm, and hopefully spread enough awareness to codify a change. You're free to feel however you want on the topic, but I would object to this behavior from any company. > They set the rules, you all agreed to play by them The internet did not agree to "Apple's rules". That's like saying Sony made their "rules" with the Playstation 3 browser, and now everyone has to play by that. They released a client, and their customers agreed to their Terms of Service. The internet will do whatever it wants, including whittle itself down to the lowest common denominator of 'document rendering' to hit Apple's platforms. If that's an undesired outcome for them or their users, maybe they should change their approach.

dijit 3y ago

Situation is not better on the desktop, it's just ironically not as annoying because of the insane dominance of Windows.

smoldesu 3y ago
It's not better anywhere. That's the problem, everything is a game of compromise and when you try to fix things for yourself a big company gives you the stink-eye. The web is the last place left where developers feel they have freedom, which should make us all feel very sad considering they run a whole-ass computer that they effectively ignore because of arbitrary restrictions.
- dijit 3y ago
  > The web is the last place left where developers feel they have freedom Come on, we have excellent open computing platforms; it's just not where the money is right now. Nobody can see passed their nose for profits though so we end up with lowest common denominator everything: which forces you to run a whole code interpreter on everything. Apple said "no, you can't" and that's where the money is, so you had (and continue to have) a choice and your business chooses to use it. So, you have to play by those rules. I mean, I'm not taking a stand here; despite people believing that I'm defending apple. You don't get the sit around though and reap the benefits of the system they built (and developers helped build) while simultaneously trying to tear it down. They set the rules, you all agreed to play by them; so why are we complaining? If you actually care you would make programs on one of the many open standards platforms which in turn would turn them into more attractive platforms as the ecosystem improved. But nobody does, everyone just wants the money now.
  - smoldesu 3y ago
    Largely, I don't disagree with you. Apple's stance is entirely business-oriented. My original point isn't taking a stand here either; this is just why native apps suck and why people disregard them to make Electron apps. We both seem to agree that business is the core concern. Apple is at least complicit in the status-quo as a vendor of native app SDKs, and it's something they could probably fix with the right initiative. At the business layer, they have no motivation to fix this issue. On an individual level, it's a black hole of annoyance, confusion and hand-wavey abstraction as to why certain things are off-limits or why certain apps aren't on iPhone. Treating your userbase as a hostage situation is an obvious ploy, and one I can't encourage even to fix another problem. If we rely on the altruism of businesses to fix our market problems, then we are subject to their whims when they want to change things for themselves. If we can both agree that Apple can and does make decisions that harm their users, then we're basically on the same page. I want to scrutinize that harm, and hopefully spread enough awareness to codify a change. You're free to feel however you want on the topic, but I would object to this behavior from any company. > They set the rules, you all agreed to play by them The internet did not agree to "Apple's rules". That's like saying Sony made their "rules" with the Playstation 3 browser, and now everyone has to play by that. They released a client, and their customers agreed to their Terms of Service. The internet will do whatever it wants, including whittle itself down to the lowest common denominator of 'document rendering' to hit Apple's platforms. If that's an undesired outcome for them or their users, maybe they should change their approach.