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It’s interesting watching Russia struggle as it devolves into a lawless hellscape with daily drone attacks on its capital. The Russian people who are against t

It’s interesting watching Russia struggle as it devolves into a lawless hellscape with daily drone attacks on its capital. The Russian people who are against this nonsense were unfortunately reluctant to speak up due to fear of death, but when good people remain silent we see what happens time and time again.

mempko 3y ago
Yes, because mass protests seem to do well to stop wars. I remember when there were mass protests in the US for the Iraq war and it was over in a month. Remember that time? /s
- pluijzer 3y ago
  I think that protests where one of the factors that stopped the war with Vietnam.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Mass protests work. But they take time and persistence. It's not the spectacle of the actual mass protest itself, its what they do to create connections and unity between people who previously felt isolated from each other. The most important thing coming out of a protest is not the pictures for the news media, but the "come to this next event" fliers handed out, or mailing lists put together, to continue to build momentum. Protest was most likely a huge factor in keeping Canada (and probably other potential "allies") out of the war, no matter what Chretien says in retrospect. The federal Liberals in power at the time were on the fence, but the mass protests that week (and leading up to it) were the largest in history and the government clearly saw it would cost them. (But then they turned around and provided backchannel support, and were still involved in Afghanistan, etc. so...) I suspect getting involved there was also a big factor in the implosion of the UK Labour Party since then... I marched in the protests that week in Toronto. They were the largest mass street protests -- and probably the most emotional -- I've ever been in. It got pretty heated outside the US embassy, too. Seems to me the problem in the US with the Iraq war is that Americans are on the whole brought up to be extremely pro-military, "support our troops" at all cost. Lots of ra-ra patriotism stuff that is about the only thing in US society that is not partisan. Many of the "liberals" I know there still give me shitty excuses why they initially supported what was clearly, to anybody who was thinking a terrible imperialist war. Anybody with half a brain knew it wasn't about "weapons of mass destruction", and people still using that "they lied to us" excuse are being intellectually dishonest. They supported because of nationalism. And you know what, instead of Russians using this historical example as a "What About?" moment to point fingers at the US -- which accomplishes nothing -- they should be absorbing the actual lesson about the awful things that imperialist nationalism makes people and nations do... and get a spine. I expected Americans to get a spine then and stop the war, and I expect Russians to do so now. Disappointed both times, so far.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    the only country so far where i found patriotism or nationalism is not welcome is germany.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  There were protests, but initially at least it was a popular idea, iirc.
  - cmrdporcupine 3y ago
    Largest protests in western history. Even in the US, where the population was pretty gaslit. There was more opposition to that war from the start than there ever was for Vietnam.
    - wombat-man 3y ago
      No, the US population was in favor of the war overall, especially at the beginning. I don't know how this compares to the Vietnam war. But the Vietnam war involved conscription, so I'd bet that had more domestic opposition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_S...
Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago
When is your flight to Russia to protest the war? Or can Russians come to the US to protest so they can fit your definition of "good people?"
- cycrutchfield 3y ago
  Russians can protest in Russia. Or at least they could, if they weren’t so suddenly averse to “politics”.
  - wombat-man 3y ago
    It can be a dicey proposition there.
    - cycrutchfield 3y ago
      So was protesting in Ukraine during Euromaidan. Maybe Russians can learn a thing or two from Ukrainians.
      - thriftwy 3y ago
        Learn how to overthrow your government, lose several regions to a larger neighbour's invasion, become significantly poorer, and then get dragged to die on the front in a hot war against it? But at least they don't have that president they didn't like, who was an obstacle for them joining the EU. Learning things from Euromaidan is arguably why Russia is still in coherent state under so much pressure. Russians are very aware of the abyss that may open in place of an even previously super peaceful country when a revolution happens. Got three shots of that vaccine.
        helge9210 3y ago
        Somehow the assumption is that without Euromaidan, Ukraine would still be intact and not in a war. "Not in a war" part is correct. The government was preparing to give Ukraine to Russia as a whole. Ukrainian paratroopers has an exercise in Summer 2013 to subdue an insurgency in Western Ukraine. If Russians are afraid to get to jail or get shot, they can always commit self-immolation in protest. (There was a case actually last year, but not against the war. Only against conscription.)
pjc50 3y ago
It's been a mafia-run semi-lawless place almost since the fall of Communism. Really not clear how it's going to get out of this state.
- jjtheblunt 3y ago
  Are royal families mafias themselves? If so, Communism rose by deposing one mafia, which of course morphed into a different but similar mafia? Sort of the history of Europe in many instances?
  - FredPret 3y ago
    By this logic it's mafias all the way up. Every government takes protection money / taxes whether you like it or not, and will send men with guns if you don't pay. It's all about who has a monopoly on violence. Democratic government is by far the best solution to this dilemma.
- daniel-cussen 3y ago
  [dead]
- helge9210 3y ago
  Technically speaking, it became mafia-run the moment Eltsin got guarantees for himself and his family and agreed to give-up power to mafia-KGB-chimera representative Putin.

mempko 3y ago

Yes, because mass protests seem to do well to stop wars. I remember when there were mass protests in the US for the Iraq war and it was over in a month. Remember that time? /s

pluijzer 3y ago
I think that protests where one of the factors that stopped the war with Vietnam.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
Mass protests work. But they take time and persistence. It's not the spectacle of the actual mass protest itself, its what they do to create connections and unity between people who previously felt isolated from each other. The most important thing coming out of a protest is not the pictures for the news media, but the "come to this next event" fliers handed out, or mailing lists put together, to continue to build momentum. Protest was most likely a huge factor in keeping Canada (and probably other potential "allies") out of the war, no matter what Chretien says in retrospect. The federal Liberals in power at the time were on the fence, but the mass protests that week (and leading up to it) were the largest in history and the government clearly saw it would cost them. (But then they turned around and provided backchannel support, and were still involved in Afghanistan, etc. so...) I suspect getting involved there was also a big factor in the implosion of the UK Labour Party since then... I marched in the protests that week in Toronto. They were the largest mass street protests -- and probably the most emotional -- I've ever been in. It got pretty heated outside the US embassy, too. Seems to me the problem in the US with the Iraq war is that Americans are on the whole brought up to be extremely pro-military, "support our troops" at all cost. Lots of ra-ra patriotism stuff that is about the only thing in US society that is not partisan. Many of the "liberals" I know there still give me shitty excuses why they initially supported what was clearly, to anybody who was thinking a terrible imperialist war. Anybody with half a brain knew it wasn't about "weapons of mass destruction", and people still using that "they lied to us" excuse are being intellectually dishonest. They supported because of nationalism. And you know what, instead of Russians using this historical example as a "What About?" moment to point fingers at the US -- which accomplishes nothing -- they should be absorbing the actual lesson about the awful things that imperialist nationalism makes people and nations do... and get a spine. I expected Americans to get a spine then and stop the war, and I expect Russians to do so now. Disappointed both times, so far.
- em-bee 3y ago
  the only country so far where i found patriotism or nationalism is not welcome is germany.
wombat-man 3y ago
There were protests, but initially at least it was a popular idea, iirc.
- cmrdporcupine 3y ago
  Largest protests in western history. Even in the US, where the population was pretty gaslit. There was more opposition to that war from the start than there ever was for Vietnam.
  - wombat-man 3y ago
    No, the US population was in favor of the war overall, especially at the beginning. I don't know how this compares to the Vietnam war. But the Vietnam war involved conscription, so I'd bet that had more domestic opposition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_States_on_the_invasion_of_Iraq https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_opinion_in_the_United_S...

Vt71fcAqt7 3y ago

When is your flight to Russia to protest the war? Or can Russians come to the US to protest so they can fit your definition of "good people?"

cycrutchfield 3y ago
Russians can protest in Russia. Or at least they could, if they weren’t so suddenly averse to “politics”.
- wombat-man 3y ago
  It can be a dicey proposition there.
  - cycrutchfield 3y ago
    So was protesting in Ukraine during Euromaidan. Maybe Russians can learn a thing or two from Ukrainians.
    - thriftwy 3y ago
      Learn how to overthrow your government, lose several regions to a larger neighbour's invasion, become significantly poorer, and then get dragged to die on the front in a hot war against it? But at least they don't have that president they didn't like, who was an obstacle for them joining the EU. Learning things from Euromaidan is arguably why Russia is still in coherent state under so much pressure. Russians are very aware of the abyss that may open in place of an even previously super peaceful country when a revolution happens. Got three shots of that vaccine.
      - helge9210 3y ago
        Somehow the assumption is that without Euromaidan, Ukraine would still be intact and not in a war. "Not in a war" part is correct. The government was preparing to give Ukraine to Russia as a whole. Ukrainian paratroopers has an exercise in Summer 2013 to subdue an insurgency in Western Ukraine. If Russians are afraid to get to jail or get shot, they can always commit self-immolation in protest. (There was a case actually last year, but not against the war. Only against conscription.)

pjc50 3y ago

It's been a mafia-run semi-lawless place almost since the fall of Communism. Really not clear how it's going to get out of this state.

jjtheblunt 3y ago
Are royal families mafias themselves? If so, Communism rose by deposing one mafia, which of course morphed into a different but similar mafia? Sort of the history of Europe in many instances?
- FredPret 3y ago
  By this logic it's mafias all the way up. Every government takes protection money / taxes whether you like it or not, and will send men with guns if you don't pay. It's all about who has a monopoly on violence. Democratic government is by far the best solution to this dilemma.
daniel-cussen 3y ago
[dead]
helge9210 3y ago
Technically speaking, it became mafia-run the moment Eltsin got guarantees for himself and his family and agreed to give-up power to mafia-KGB-chimera representative Putin.