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By what standard? Yours? Java developers? Rust developers? The fact that Python has typing now, tools to check those, and has plenty of tooling around “make it

By what standard? Yours? Java developers? Rust developers? The fact that Python has typing now, tools to check those, and has plenty of tooling around “make it faster”, I think your world view might be stuck in 2010. Python has gone from a slow obscure scripting language to a powerhouse. Conda, NumPy, Scikit, PyTorch, GPU programming, Games, Analytics, web apps, API’s, I think it’s safe to say this ain’t your grandpa’s Python anymore.

bmitc 3y ago
I have seen Python in action since 2010 plenty of times, including the present. It's been a mess every time. My worldview is driven by F# and Elixir, namely the `dotnet` and `mix` tooling, respectively. So no, Python's tooling does not impress me in the slightest. The first thing you need to do is get agreement on all the different checkers, linters, formatters. For Elixir, there's one tool for each task. My worldview feels quite current. Those other things you mentioned aren't relevant to tooling. They're distributions, libraries, and applications. But note that Conda's existence was basically due to the fact of Python's tooling being poor.
- gabereiser 3y ago
  You see tooling in a different view than typical Python users. Python users see things like iPython, notebooks, the ability to quickly do statistics and plot results, as tooling - to do their jobs. Data Science. Machine learning. Things that perplex and confound static-typing OOP purists. So yes, by your world view - Python is a mess. There's no one way to do things, there's no one tool, no one linter, no one formatter. I praise the fact that there isn't. What a boring world. What choice would you have if that tool didn't satisfy your needs? Find another language? I began in that world view. The C/C++/Java/DotNet everything must have a standard, a fixation on a singular consensus. That's not how things work in the open source world of Python, javascript, rust, etc. Will there be gravitation towards a paradigm? sure, until such time that a new one emerges. If you looked at Python in the 2.5 days and looked at Python today - You cannot argue the tooling has gotten better.
  - v3gajerusalem 3y ago
    They want to be lisp SOOO BAD! =)
  - bmitc 3y ago
    > You see tooling in a different view than typical Python users. That doesn't surprise me. I do what you mentioned with F# in Polyglot Notebooks (which support several languages in the same notebook) and Elixir in Livebook all the time, both of which are superior notebook implementations to the outdated Python Jupyter notebooks. My worldview is not driven by comparing Python to C#, Java, C++, and other such ilk.
    - 2colours 3y ago
      So following your logic, "some of the worst" includes the vast majority of actually used languages and tools. Must be cool to be on the special side. :)

bmitc 3y ago

I have seen Python in action since 2010 plenty of times, including the present. It's been a mess every time. My worldview is driven by F# and Elixir, namely the `dotnet` and `mix` tooling, respectively. So no, Python's tooling does not impress me in the slightest. The first thing you need to do is get agreement on all the different checkers, linters, formatters. For Elixir, there's one tool for each task. My worldview feels quite current. Those other things you mentioned aren't relevant to tooling. They're distributions, libraries, and applications. But note that Conda's existence was basically due to the fact of Python's tooling being poor.

gabereiser 3y ago
You see tooling in a different view than typical Python users. Python users see things like iPython, notebooks, the ability to quickly do statistics and plot results, as tooling - to do their jobs. Data Science. Machine learning. Things that perplex and confound static-typing OOP purists. So yes, by your world view - Python is a mess. There's no one way to do things, there's no one tool, no one linter, no one formatter. I praise the fact that there isn't. What a boring world. What choice would you have if that tool didn't satisfy your needs? Find another language? I began in that world view. The C/C++/Java/DotNet everything must have a standard, a fixation on a singular consensus. That's not how things work in the open source world of Python, javascript, rust, etc. Will there be gravitation towards a paradigm? sure, until such time that a new one emerges. If you looked at Python in the 2.5 days and looked at Python today - You cannot argue the tooling has gotten better.
- v3gajerusalem 3y ago
  They want to be lisp SOOO BAD! =)
- bmitc 3y ago
  > You see tooling in a different view than typical Python users. That doesn't surprise me. I do what you mentioned with F# in Polyglot Notebooks (which support several languages in the same notebook) and Elixir in Livebook all the time, both of which are superior notebook implementations to the outdated Python Jupyter notebooks. My worldview is not driven by comparing Python to C#, Java, C++, and other such ilk.
  - 2colours 3y ago
    So following your logic, "some of the worst" includes the vast majority of actually used languages and tools. Must be cool to be on the special side. :)