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Really setting aside the divisive political positions that have poisoned the debate in the US, I find it really interesting that really solid science has been d

Really setting aside the divisive political positions that have poisoned the debate in the US, I find it really interesting that really solid science has been done by scientists truly studying the data with appropriate scepticism and the scientific method, while proponents of the zoonosis origin of Covid have characteristically lied and manipulated data, and also generally addressed the scientific findings that contradict their standpoint with personal insults and ad hominem attacks. Here are just a few of the people that have studied the data scientifically - and have destroyed the supposed 'raccoon dog' theory, the cherry-picked and manipulated data used by Worobey et al, and obviously the lies that went into the infamous 'Proximal Origin' document - which the authors themselves did not believe: https://nitter.net/gdemaneuf https://nitter.net/gdemaneuf https://nitter.net/mbalter https://nitter.net/mbalter https://nitter.net/jbloom_lab https://nitter.net/jbloom_lab https://nitter.net/R_H_Ebright https://nitter.net/R_H_Ebright https://nitter.net/EmaNymton90 https://nitter.net/EmaNymton90 PS: please at least spend a few seconds looking at the links here as it's disheartening that there are so many negative responses within a few seconds of my posting this in good faith. None of these experts are fringe activists or crackpots.

ftxbro 3y ago
> Really setting aside the divisive political positions that have poisoned the debate in the US yeah but if you believe lab leak then you are probably also an anti-fauci anti-vax anti-masker qanon trumper who gets all your news from tucker carlson and laura ingraham
- postalrat 3y ago
  And if you believe that then you've been brainwashed into ignoring inconvenient truths.
- stringsandchars 3y ago
  > yeah but if you believe lab leak then you are probably also an anti-fauci anti-vax anti-masker qanon trumper who gets all your news from tucker carlson and Laura ingraham I can't tell whether this is sarcasm? I don't even know who Laura Ingraham is and though I've heard of Tucker Carlson I've never seen or read anything he's written or said (on TV?). I'd characterize myself as a normal, left-wing European who initially totally believed the zoonosis origin of covid. But being genuinely curious about the science, I've read more and more of the abstracts analising the available data, and gradually realized that all the actual facts - even though some of them circumstantial - point with much higher likelihood towards an accidental lab-leak (which incidentally happen all the time), than the very unlikely 'double jump' of two separate lineages infecting people at the market - but not infecting anyone else in the entire delivery chain from capture or animal farming, to the market itself.
- calmlynarczyk 3y ago
  I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.
- claytongulick 3y ago
  That's a really funny comment, but is also kind of a gut-punch. So many people have their entire world view and sense of self tied up in political narratives (left or right) that they are actually unable to objectively explore a subject. Much easier to just downvote the "others" because they are obviously wrong. Because if they aren't wrong - maybe, just maybe - the ideological shield we use to cope with the world would start showing cracks.
llm_nerd 3y ago
Did you really post this in good faith? Come on. The impression from your comment is that the lab leak proponents are all doing good science, but are being attacked by the zoonosis proponents who all lie and manipulate data. That you then give some cherry picked selections and demand that everyone Do Your Own Research is not a convincing argument. It is, in fact, the go to for crackpots everywhere. I have zero bias for either outcome. It isn't my field or expertise. It should continue to be studied in depth so we can prepare for the future, and clearly there are very smart, very capable people arguing sincerely for both positions, as is often the case when there is a lack of data to more conclusively prove anything. At the same time, people should realize that the "lab leak" theory got suppressed not because by itself there was anything evil with it -- labs do have accidents -- but that it was proximal with bad people and bad arguments and got tainted by association. e.g. The Assholes of society were almost universally proponents of the lab leak theory because it's pat, fits in loads of conspiracies and racist overtones, and lets you stomp your feet in anger. Those people basically tarnished the position.
- stringsandchars 3y ago
  > Did you really post this in good faith? Come on. I'm not sure how to respond. I want people to look at posts like this one[1], that actually reference solidly researched studies like those done by Bloom Labs, instead of the manipulated and cherry-picked data used by Worobey and others who support the wet-market scenario (at least in public). There are a lot of crackpots out there, and I try to ignore their anti-vax nonsense. But just because it's convenient for them to align themselves with what they seem to think is some sort of anti-China hypothesis, it's no reason for me to discount the clear and growing evidence that a lab accident infected workers, and spread from there, wherever it might have been in the world. [1] https://nitter.net/ydeigin/status/1695588327540347329 https://nitter.net/ydeigin/status/1695588327540347329
  - llm_nerd 3y ago
    The current state of the debate is that there are credible, lauded experts arguing both positions. If it was a straw-vote among the most respected figures in the field, it it would still lean towards a zoonic origin, I suspect. But almost all of them believe the data is incomplete. I questioned the faith of the post because your post implies pretty clearly that there is all of the evidence on one side, and all of the charlatans, liars and fake data is on the other. That seems...unlikely. But you see it because you chose a position and everything then fits that position. Eh.
tomrod 3y ago
Both when this was initially discussed in 2020 and following, I've maintained that: (1) at the time it didn't matter what the source was; what mattered at the time was not flaming international conflict which the US leadership was aiming to do. Now that we have survived and moved forward, it's absolutely appropriate to discuss the source if there is any reasonable evidence towards one source or another: lab, meat market, random chance (2) ideological conflict won't lead to better lab safety (3) if it was a lab leak, what a shame. Frankly, I don't really care what the source was as its identification doesn't change my life in a meaningful way. If it was a lab leak, glad it wasn't something worse and hope we can institute better policies.
- baja_blast 3y ago
  Well I care, I have family members who died due to this pandemic, and covering up a lab origin to protect dangerous research is not a valid reason. Given how common lab leaks are and the massive growth of this type of research playing down the possibility prevents needed regulations and bans on something that could kill millions more. It is bound to happen again if we do not do anything!
  - tomrod 3y ago
    So you want better lab safety, and that is reasonable. How would Covid-19 being a lab leak, or not, change your desire for safer lab work? How would the outcome of a lab leak determination change your life outside of your desire for safer labs?

ftxbro 3y ago

> Really setting aside the divisive political positions that have poisoned the debate in the US yeah but if you believe lab leak then you are probably also an anti-fauci anti-vax anti-masker qanon trumper who gets all your news from tucker carlson and laura ingraham

postalrat 3y ago
And if you believe that then you've been brainwashed into ignoring inconvenient truths.
stringsandchars 3y ago
> yeah but if you believe lab leak then you are probably also an anti-fauci anti-vax anti-masker qanon trumper who gets all your news from tucker carlson and Laura ingraham I can't tell whether this is sarcasm? I don't even know who Laura Ingraham is and though I've heard of Tucker Carlson I've never seen or read anything he's written or said (on TV?). I'd characterize myself as a normal, left-wing European who initially totally believed the zoonosis origin of covid. But being genuinely curious about the science, I've read more and more of the abstracts analising the available data, and gradually realized that all the actual facts - even though some of them circumstantial - point with much higher likelihood towards an accidental lab-leak (which incidentally happen all the time), than the very unlikely 'double jump' of two separate lineages infecting people at the market - but not infecting anyone else in the entire delivery chain from capture or animal farming, to the market itself.
calmlynarczyk 3y ago
I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.
claytongulick 3y ago
That's a really funny comment, but is also kind of a gut-punch. So many people have their entire world view and sense of self tied up in political narratives (left or right) that they are actually unable to objectively explore a subject. Much easier to just downvote the "others" because they are obviously wrong. Because if they aren't wrong - maybe, just maybe - the ideological shield we use to cope with the world would start showing cracks.

llm_nerd 3y ago

Did you really post this in good faith? Come on. The impression from your comment is that the lab leak proponents are all doing good science, but are being attacked by the zoonosis proponents who all lie and manipulate data. That you then give some cherry picked selections and demand that everyone Do Your Own Research is not a convincing argument. It is, in fact, the go to for crackpots everywhere. I have zero bias for either outcome. It isn't my field or expertise. It should continue to be studied in depth so we can prepare for the future, and clearly there are very smart, very capable people arguing sincerely for both positions, as is often the case when there is a lack of data to more conclusively prove anything. At the same time, people should realize that the "lab leak" theory got suppressed not because by itself there was anything evil with it -- labs do have accidents -- but that it was proximal with bad people and bad arguments and got tainted by association. e.g. The Assholes of society were almost universally proponents of the lab leak theory because it's pat, fits in loads of conspiracies and racist overtones, and lets you stomp your feet in anger. Those people basically tarnished the position.

stringsandchars 3y ago
> Did you really post this in good faith? Come on. I'm not sure how to respond. I want people to look at posts like this one[1], that actually reference solidly researched studies like those done by Bloom Labs, instead of the manipulated and cherry-picked data used by Worobey and others who support the wet-market scenario (at least in public). There are a lot of crackpots out there, and I try to ignore their anti-vax nonsense. But just because it's convenient for them to align themselves with what they seem to think is some sort of anti-China hypothesis, it's no reason for me to discount the clear and growing evidence that a lab accident infected workers, and spread from there, wherever it might have been in the world. [1] https://nitter.net/ydeigin/status/1695588327540347329 https://nitter.net/ydeigin/status/1695588327540347329
- llm_nerd 3y ago
  The current state of the debate is that there are credible, lauded experts arguing both positions. If it was a straw-vote among the most respected figures in the field, it it would still lean towards a zoonic origin, I suspect. But almost all of them believe the data is incomplete. I questioned the faith of the post because your post implies pretty clearly that there is all of the evidence on one side, and all of the charlatans, liars and fake data is on the other. That seems...unlikely. But you see it because you chose a position and everything then fits that position. Eh.

tomrod 3y ago

Both when this was initially discussed in 2020 and following, I've maintained that: (1) at the time it didn't matter what the source was; what mattered at the time was not flaming international conflict which the US leadership was aiming to do. Now that we have survived and moved forward, it's absolutely appropriate to discuss the source if there is any reasonable evidence towards one source or another: lab, meat market, random chance (2) ideological conflict won't lead to better lab safety (3) if it was a lab leak, what a shame. Frankly, I don't really care what the source was as its identification doesn't change my life in a meaningful way. If it was a lab leak, glad it wasn't something worse and hope we can institute better policies.

baja_blast 3y ago
Well I care, I have family members who died due to this pandemic, and covering up a lab origin to protect dangerous research is not a valid reason. Given how common lab leaks are and the massive growth of this type of research playing down the possibility prevents needed regulations and bans on something that could kill millions more. It is bound to happen again if we do not do anything!
- tomrod 3y ago
  So you want better lab safety, and that is reasonable. How would Covid-19 being a lab leak, or not, change your desire for safer lab work? How would the outcome of a lab leak determination change your life outside of your desire for safer labs?