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There's a pretty good argument to be made that Linux, the most high-profile GPL project in existence, not trying to enforce its license/copyright terms on reaso
by aseipp 3y ago
There's a pretty good argument to be made that Linux, the most high-profile GPL project in existence, not trying to enforce its license/copyright terms on reasonable grounds, is far, far worse for the FOSS ecosystem than the alternative of being sort-of-mean to corporation XYZ (where XYZ = Nvidia, VMWare, RandomHardwareCorp Inc, whatever). If the biggest 800lb Gorilla in the room isn't willing to go to court over it, that doesn't paint a very rosy picture for the rest of us.
If Linux is going to just use "soft" mechanisms to force the hands of MegaCorps when they do blatant license/copyright violations, then they might as well put a fork in the GPL, call it done, and switch to BSD3 or MIT+Apache or something. And before people yell at me, this is precisely how LLVM operates; the project does not use strong copyleft licensing, but purely technical means, to "force" upstream cooperation, due to factors like APIs churn and extremely high development velocity. And it seems to work pretty well, actually, without watering down their respective chosen license.
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- cogman10 3y agoLawsuits are like nuclear war in this instance. If someone starts the ball rolling, it's a long and expensive legal battle with tons of parties involved. Consider the Oracle v Google lawsuit which started in 2010 and was resolved in 2021. With the number of companies involved in the kernel you are looking at a much longer and more expensive trial all around. This has always been the weakness of both the GPL and the US civil justice system.
- llm_thr 3y agoThe difference is that the suit in that case was for billions of dollars. The suit in this case would be for compliance with the GPL.
- beanjuiceII 3y agonvidia are in compliance, they are working around it with a shim, that is why he says the new guards are put in place to enforce the "intention" of the original changes. There is no case
- Zigurd 3y agoThat's not really how licences work. "Ha, ha I have a workaround that negates the intent of your license with a clever hack" is not a defensible position.
- beanjuiceII 3y agothat is how licenses work, they aren't about what you "intend"
- MichaelZuo 3y agoEvery additional interest involved in the case would multiply legal complexity, and legal costs, probably exponentially.
- cogman10 3y agoThe remedy is only one part of the cost of lawsuits. Discovery and attorney fees would be a big portion of the picture here. If there's no settlement reached, each party will have a right to collect and comb through documents related to the lawsuit. Further, they'd have the right to interview (take a deposition of) everyone involved in decisions surrounding the controversy. That means, nVidia would (likely) have the right to start talking to people in HP, Intel, AMD, Oracle, broadcom, On semiconductor, etc. Practically anyone involved with kernel development and decision making around kernel development. The US civil legal system is designed to try and force parties into settlement. However, when you have a major corporation with cash to burn, they can win simply by dragging everything out.
- gwd 3y ago> Lawsuits are like nuclear war in this instance. Are they? Because big companies seem to sue each other all the time, even while actively collaborating in other areas. Is Linus suing NVIDIA for blatantly working around technical measures to prevent copyright infringement really worse than Apple suing Samsung for selling phones that look like theirs, or than Oracle suing Google because they made Java-compatible APIs? > If someone starts the ball rolling, it's a long and expensive legal battle with tons of parties involved. Consider the Oracle v Google lawsuit which started in 2010 and was resolved in 2021. Sounds more like normal "war". Yeah, you'd have to figure out who would finance Linus' side, but it doesn't seem like it should be that difficult. > With the number of companies involved in the kernel you are looking at a much longer and more expensive trial all around. Why would other companies be involved? Linus doesn't have to sue everyone, he can just sue NVIDIA. Other companies might submit briefs, but that would be voluntary.
- cogman10 3y ago> Why would other companies be involved? Linus doesn't have to sue everyone, he can just sue NVIDIA. Other companies might submit briefs, but that would be voluntary. In a civil lawsuit, both parties are entitled to "discovery" which means knowing what the other party knows about the controversy in question. It would be reasonable discovery for nVidia to want interviews with engineers in HP that have contributed to kernel development. Whether these companies want to be involved in the lawsuit or not, they'll get dragged in because they've directly participated in kernel development and/or governance. Now, discovery isn't unlimited, so it's possible for a judge to say "actually, this steps too far, you only need to talk to linus" but that's in no means a guarantee. https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/lawsuits-and-the-court-process/the-discovery-process/ https://www.justia.com/trials-litigation/lawsuits-and-the-co...
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- teddyh 3y agoReportedly, LLVM, while initially successful, has severely slowed down its development lately, with many historical contributing companies having abandoned LLVM in order to focus on their own company-specific languages. So LLVM may no longer be the beacon of permissive licensing that it once seemed to be.
- CoastalCoder 3y agoCould you elaborate on this? It's the first I've heard of it, but maybe I'm just too out of the loop.
- teddyh 3y ago<https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32924033 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32924033>
- Scoring6931 3y agoIs your source a random person on the Internet? I work daily with LLVM and haven't noticed any slowdown in contributions by employees from Google or Apple.
- teddyh 3y agoI seem to recall seeing mentions elsewhere, but this was all I could find. However, as I don’t have any first-hand knowledge myself, I’ll gladly yield to your superior experience.
- dagmx 3y agoAfaik the only notable departure has been Google for Carbon, but afaik even they use llvm as the backend. I believe the only negative consequence has been to clang not llvm itself.
- teddyh 3y agoIt could be that I am conflating Clang with LLVM.
- kmeisthax 3y agoCounterargument: The FSF would get very mad if you made a DMCA 1201 claim based off GPL code. In fact, they explicitly put a "this software is not DRM" clause in GPLv3, to prevent exactly this kind of lawsuit. That being said, even in the alternate universe where Linus decided to relicense to GPLv3 + syscall exception[0], they could still make a normal infringement claim on the GPL copyleft. DMCA 1201 claims are just a really ironic thing to add to such a lawsuit. [0] TiVo clause be damned
- cryptonector 3y agoOr perhaps Linux et. al. suing Nvidia and others might cause pressure to relax the DMCA. We can only speculate.
- 3np 3y agoI really don't think there is such a thing as a moral obligation to sue, and/or to do so consistently.