5 ms·

Something that I don't see discussed in the comments yesterday: There seems to be this other company that made a device to read error codes, and then theres le

Something that I don't see discussed in the comments yesterday: There seems to be this other company that made a device to read error codes, and then theres legal trouble surrounding that and the copyright on the firmware of the original controller board. But all this seems like not the best approach- The electronics on the original boards themselves do not appear that complicated. This machine itself, mechanically, cannot have all that sophisticated of mechatronic interface. Why not just circumvent everything with a completely new 3rd party control board that replaces the OE electronics completely and runs the machines? People design and develop systems every day for fun even that are an order of magnitude more complicated than the control system of this ice cream machine. Are the machines leased or owned? Because if they are owned outright (which is implied by the fast that ifixit was able to buy a used one to work on) then wholesale replacement of the control electronics would just void any warranty but would not be able to be hit with any sort of firmwarm hack copyright claim, assuming any new software writted for the control logic was clean-sheet engineered and not reversed from the Taylor control system. At some point if they are leased, breaking the lease and buying the machines outright and then upgrading the controls would potentially be the way forward for the franchises. Unless in the lease there is a clause that breaking the lease requires repossession of the hardware from the premises. At which point franchises need to stand up to McDonalds corporate and demand a new supplier of machines of a new design.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
To latch onto your comment: What about competition? Ice cream machines are not complicated, relatively speaking. Isn't McD's fed up with the cost and loss of reputation? They could build their own - high efficiency, high quality, high reliability, low maintenance cost - line of ice cream machines and distribute them to the... over 40.000 McD's franchises worldwide.
- ilovetux 3y ago
  The company that they purchase ice cream machines from make reliable, efficient machines for other resteraunts. McDonalds corporate has a stipulation that franchisees mist purchase the same, old ice cream machines. The major problem with them, as I understand it, is that any sort of malfunction leads to the machine shutting down and displaying an archaic, nonsensical error code. When you look the code up and how to resolve it almost always says that you need to call a licensed maintenance tech. It is all about propping up the service division of the machine's OEM.
  - ethbr1 3y ago
    That's not the entire objective situation. McDonald's is trying to run an industrial volume process with ingredients subject to contamination and spoilage... using minimum wage young workers with varying levels of attention/dedication to details. It's a difficult set of constraints that includes a non-negligible amount of blaming the machine for willful lapses in procedure.
    - MostlyStable 3y ago
      Those are the same constraints that every other fast food chain has, yet only McDonalds appears to have this problem.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        We don't have any evidence to support this claim though. McDonald's appears to sell a lot more soft serve (by volume) than any other fast food chain. People go there specifically for McFlurries and others, and then leave disappointed when the machine is not working. Few, if any, go to Burger King or Arby's only for a soft serve product. So, the issue appears more visible. But that's not evidence that McDonald's machines are less reliable. It could simply be they're the most used.
        squeaky-clean 3y ago
        The Wendy's Frosty though?
        Alupis 3y ago
        McDonald's is nearly 6 times larger than Wendy's by number of stores, and double the revenue, with more than half of that revenue coming from franchise fees[1], if I'm reading this correctly. [1] https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/content/dam/sites/corp/nfl/pdf/MCD_2023_Annual_Report.pdf https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/content/dam/sites/corp/nfl/p...
      - 3y ago
- ixwt 3y ago
  This video [0] alleges that McDonalds franchise are required to purchase a specific model of Taylor soft serve machine. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
- kranke155 3y ago
  Apparently the machines are cheap and McD likes that. The cost of maintenance is thrown onto the franchisee (350$ per 15min as explained in the article) which McD doesn’t have to care about. So Taylor seems them cheap because they know they will get their end from maintenance which the franchisee pays for
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    McDonalds corp cares whether franchisees succeed or fail. Failing franchisees start cutting corners, which results in McDonalds stores which are run down, with poor service and product quality and this harms McDonalds corp's reputation and bottom line. This is the reason McDonalds corp won't let just anybody start a franchise, you have to buy your way into this game by having at least a million dollars liquid, to prove to the corp that you have enough cash on hand to run the store properly. They also don't let a franchisee put the store anywhere they like, rather they choose and develop properties themselves to make sure those locations make strategic sense for the corp as a whole (they don't want two McDonalds franchises sitting right next to each other competing, driving each other out of business.) Furthermore if you want to be a franchisee you have to go through their training courses, you can't just buy a McDonalds franchise on a whim and gift it to your trustfund son. If you want your spoiled son to own a McDonalds franchise, you need to persuade him to go through their training program. If Taylor machines were actually a real threat to the viability of many McDonalds franchises, McDonalds corp would make changes. It is against their interests for McDonalds franchises to fail and they already employ several severe and strict measures to reduce the likelihood of failure. If this system seems overbearing, then simply start your own burger shop, or get a franchise from a fast food brand who doesn't give a shit like Subway. Subway will give a franchise to somebody with a tenth as much money, don't care if franchises sit on top of each other, etc. Not incidentally, Subway has an abysmal reputation for consistency, quality, cleanliness and food safety. McDonalds food is crap, but it's crap in a way that is consistent and safe (in the short term; it might give you diabetes but it probably won't give you botulism.)
    - raverbashing 3y ago
      Or, you know, just invest the $1Mi in a conservative investment fund and get a similar return for way less worries and work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJpNX_MyvYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJpNX_MyvYs
- orangepurple 3y ago
  McDonald's operations teams: yes, they are probably fed up. McDonald's investors: they also own the companies that make the expensive failure-prone ice cream machines. They are double dipping by writing themselves expensive repair contracts.
- xenator 3y ago
  These machines are local ruled monopoly made by management to squeeze money from franchise restaurants. This is not about competition or service this is legal scam scheme to make money.
- raverbashing 3y ago
  > Isn't McD's fed up with the cost and loss of reputation? Let's make something very clear here. McD does not concern itself with the woes of the franchisees. Not one ketchup sachet worth of worry. Costs? Not their problem. Reputation loss maaaaybe. Taylor gets exclusivity from McD and in turn gets exclusive access to maintenance. I see other commenters making the point "they are trying to make bottom dollar employees operate a machine with food safety worries". Absolutely correct. Which should be grounds for McD to ask Taylor to incorporate the more user friendly panels and operation. Now think why McD is not doing that
  - tracker1 3y ago
    Look at cross pollination of corporations where the McD board members also are. It's about propping up the system of extracting money from franchisees.
- bsder 3y ago
  > Isn't McD's fed up with the cost and loss of reputation? They could build their own - high efficiency, high quality, high reliability, low maintenance cost - line of ice cream machines and distribute them to the... over 40.000 McD's franchises worldwide. That's exactly what this machine is. The issue is that it's doing something novel--sterilizing the machine while full of liquid--in order to be able to be run by unskilled (read as: super cheap) labor. The fundamental issue is not that the machine breaks down--that's to be expected in a novel industrial machine. The problem is that there is no incentive to fix the design of the machine. Taylor gets no extra profit for doing more R&D and fixing the machine--precisely the opposite, in fact, as they get less repair revenue. McDonald's, itself, gets no extra profit for doing more R&D and fixing the machine, either, and would have to spend money on training if they went back to traditional machines. The total market for these machines is effectively the number of new McDonald's. Call these a $20K machine and McDonalds opens 500 stores per year in the US. That's $10,000,000 in new sales revenue in a year, max. That puts net profit at about $1,000,000 per year (call it 10% of gross revenue--probably optimistic for this kind of machinery) And now we hit why Taylor certainly isn't jumping to fix this and no competitor really wants into the space. Net profit of $1,000,000 per year gets dwarfed by the service revenue really quickly.
cainxinth 3y ago
> Are the machines leased or owned? Because if they are owned outright (which is implied by the fast that ifixit was able to buy a used one to work on) then wholesale replacement of the control electronics would just void any warranty but would not be able to be hit with any sort of firmwarm hack copyright claim, assuming any new software writted for the control logic was clean-sheet engineered and not reversed from the Taylor control system. It’s not the warranties that concern them. The franchisees are worried about running afoul of McDonald’s corporate, which limits what franchisees can do even to owned equipment.
randombits0 3y ago
The Kytch board does not change the original firmware. There is no copyright case here.
aidenn0 3y ago
> Are the machines leased or owned? Because if they are owned outright (which is implied by the fast that ifixit was able to buy a used one to work on) then wholesale replacement of the control electronics would just void any warranty but would not be able to be hit with any sort of firmwarm hack copyright claim, assuming any new software writted for the control logic was clean-sheet engineered and not reversed from the Taylor control system. But Taylor (presumably) won't repair them if they have modified boards and it's a breech of contract for them to hire anyone else to repair them.
theshrike79 3y ago
The base issue here is that the same group of people own McDonalds AND the company who fixes the machines. They have zero monetary incentive to allow the franchise owners to fix the machines in any way. It's a net loss to them if they don't break down as often or they can service them without an expensive technician.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago

To latch onto your comment: What about competition? Ice cream machines are not complicated, relatively speaking. Isn't McD's fed up with the cost and loss of reputation? They could build their own - high efficiency, high quality, high reliability, low maintenance cost - line of ice cream machines and distribute them to the... over 40.000 McD's franchises worldwide.

ilovetux 3y ago
The company that they purchase ice cream machines from make reliable, efficient machines for other resteraunts. McDonalds corporate has a stipulation that franchisees mist purchase the same, old ice cream machines. The major problem with them, as I understand it, is that any sort of malfunction leads to the machine shutting down and displaying an archaic, nonsensical error code. When you look the code up and how to resolve it almost always says that you need to call a licensed maintenance tech. It is all about propping up the service division of the machine's OEM.
- ethbr1 3y ago
  That's not the entire objective situation. McDonald's is trying to run an industrial volume process with ingredients subject to contamination and spoilage... using minimum wage young workers with varying levels of attention/dedication to details. It's a difficult set of constraints that includes a non-negligible amount of blaming the machine for willful lapses in procedure.
  - MostlyStable 3y ago
    Those are the same constraints that every other fast food chain has, yet only McDonalds appears to have this problem.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      We don't have any evidence to support this claim though. McDonald's appears to sell a lot more soft serve (by volume) than any other fast food chain. People go there specifically for McFlurries and others, and then leave disappointed when the machine is not working. Few, if any, go to Burger King or Arby's only for a soft serve product. So, the issue appears more visible. But that's not evidence that McDonald's machines are less reliable. It could simply be they're the most used.
      - squeaky-clean 3y ago
        The Wendy's Frosty though?
        Alupis 3y ago
        McDonald's is nearly 6 times larger than Wendy's by number of stores, and double the revenue, with more than half of that revenue coming from franchise fees[1], if I'm reading this correctly. [1] https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/content/dam/sites/corp/nfl/pdf/MCD_2023_Annual_Report.pdf https://corporate.mcdonalds.com/content/dam/sites/corp/nfl/p...
    - 3y ago
ixwt 3y ago
This video [0] alleges that McDonalds franchise are required to purchase a specific model of Taylor soft serve machine. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
kranke155 3y ago
Apparently the machines are cheap and McD likes that. The cost of maintenance is thrown onto the franchisee (350$ per 15min as explained in the article) which McD doesn’t have to care about. So Taylor seems them cheap because they know they will get their end from maintenance which the franchisee pays for
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  McDonalds corp cares whether franchisees succeed or fail. Failing franchisees start cutting corners, which results in McDonalds stores which are run down, with poor service and product quality and this harms McDonalds corp's reputation and bottom line. This is the reason McDonalds corp won't let just anybody start a franchise, you have to buy your way into this game by having at least a million dollars liquid, to prove to the corp that you have enough cash on hand to run the store properly. They also don't let a franchisee put the store anywhere they like, rather they choose and develop properties themselves to make sure those locations make strategic sense for the corp as a whole (they don't want two McDonalds franchises sitting right next to each other competing, driving each other out of business.) Furthermore if you want to be a franchisee you have to go through their training courses, you can't just buy a McDonalds franchise on a whim and gift it to your trustfund son. If you want your spoiled son to own a McDonalds franchise, you need to persuade him to go through their training program. If Taylor machines were actually a real threat to the viability of many McDonalds franchises, McDonalds corp would make changes. It is against their interests for McDonalds franchises to fail and they already employ several severe and strict measures to reduce the likelihood of failure. If this system seems overbearing, then simply start your own burger shop, or get a franchise from a fast food brand who doesn't give a shit like Subway. Subway will give a franchise to somebody with a tenth as much money, don't care if franchises sit on top of each other, etc. Not incidentally, Subway has an abysmal reputation for consistency, quality, cleanliness and food safety. McDonalds food is crap, but it's crap in a way that is consistent and safe (in the short term; it might give you diabetes but it probably won't give you botulism.)
  - raverbashing 3y ago
    Or, you know, just invest the $1Mi in a conservative investment fund and get a similar return for way less worries and work https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJpNX_MyvYs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJpNX_MyvYs
orangepurple 3y ago
McDonald's operations teams: yes, they are probably fed up. McDonald's investors: they also own the companies that make the expensive failure-prone ice cream machines. They are double dipping by writing themselves expensive repair contracts.
xenator 3y ago
These machines are local ruled monopoly made by management to squeeze money from franchise restaurants. This is not about competition or service this is legal scam scheme to make money.
raverbashing 3y ago
> Isn't McD's fed up with the cost and loss of reputation? Let's make something very clear here. McD does not concern itself with the woes of the franchisees. Not one ketchup sachet worth of worry. Costs? Not their problem. Reputation loss maaaaybe. Taylor gets exclusivity from McD and in turn gets exclusive access to maintenance. I see other commenters making the point "they are trying to make bottom dollar employees operate a machine with food safety worries". Absolutely correct. Which should be grounds for McD to ask Taylor to incorporate the more user friendly panels and operation. Now think why McD is not doing that
- tracker1 3y ago
  Look at cross pollination of corporations where the McD board members also are. It's about propping up the system of extracting money from franchisees.
bsder 3y ago
> Isn't McD's fed up with the cost and loss of reputation? They could build their own - high efficiency, high quality, high reliability, low maintenance cost - line of ice cream machines and distribute them to the... over 40.000 McD's franchises worldwide. That's exactly what this machine is. The issue is that it's doing something novel--sterilizing the machine while full of liquid--in order to be able to be run by unskilled (read as: super cheap) labor. The fundamental issue is not that the machine breaks down--that's to be expected in a novel industrial machine. The problem is that there is no incentive to fix the design of the machine. Taylor gets no extra profit for doing more R&D and fixing the machine--precisely the opposite, in fact, as they get less repair revenue. McDonald's, itself, gets no extra profit for doing more R&D and fixing the machine, either, and would have to spend money on training if they went back to traditional machines. The total market for these machines is effectively the number of new McDonald's. Call these a $20K machine and McDonalds opens 500 stores per year in the US. That's $10,000,000 in new sales revenue in a year, max. That puts net profit at about $1,000,000 per year (call it 10% of gross revenue--probably optimistic for this kind of machinery) And now we hit why Taylor certainly isn't jumping to fix this and no competitor really wants into the space. Net profit of $1,000,000 per year gets dwarfed by the service revenue really quickly.

cainxinth 3y ago

> Are the machines leased or owned? Because if they are owned outright (which is implied by the fast that ifixit was able to buy a used one to work on) then wholesale replacement of the control electronics would just void any warranty but would not be able to be hit with any sort of firmwarm hack copyright claim, assuming any new software writted for the control logic was clean-sheet engineered and not reversed from the Taylor control system. It’s not the warranties that concern them. The franchisees are worried about running afoul of McDonald’s corporate, which limits what franchisees can do even to owned equipment.

randombits0 3y ago

The Kytch board does not change the original firmware. There is no copyright case here.

aidenn0 3y ago

> Are the machines leased or owned? Because if they are owned outright (which is implied by the fast that ifixit was able to buy a used one to work on) then wholesale replacement of the control electronics would just void any warranty but would not be able to be hit with any sort of firmwarm hack copyright claim, assuming any new software writted for the control logic was clean-sheet engineered and not reversed from the Taylor control system. But Taylor (presumably) won't repair them if they have modified boards and it's a breech of contract for them to hire anyone else to repair them.

theshrike79 3y ago

The base issue here is that the same group of people own McDonalds AND the company who fixes the machines. They have zero monetary incentive to allow the franchise owners to fix the machines in any way. It's a net loss to them if they don't break down as often or they can service them without an expensive technician.