4 ms·

Conspiracy theories that require large numbers of public servants working in concert effectively and stealthily, without any leaks or whistleblowers, are presum

Conspiracy theories that require large numbers of public servants working in concert effectively and stealthily, without any leaks or whistleblowers, are presumably created by people who have never worked in the public service. > Or the cheese is just sliding off their cracker. Happens to many otherwise very bright folks. IIRC, as your intelligence gets higher, the friction of your cracker lowers.

hindsightbias 3y ago
HN has taught me that Gov’t is utterly incompetent in every domain and that the MSM all a propaganda organ. Except of course when the Venn diagram of what I Want To Believe intersects.
colordrops 3y ago
Manhattan Project, and many NSA projects until Snowden. You also don't know about the projects that didn't leak. You are basically saying that security clearance is worthless. It is indeed possible and there is a lot of precedent for large projects with long life spans that didn't leak. The "government" isn't a monolithic entity. It contains individuals and groups of a range of competencies.
- EdwardDiego 3y ago
  > Manhattan Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs Won't point out all the double agents for the KGB that infested western spy agencies, (and vice versa) it's more of the same, really, and there's too many names to type. And those are only the ones we know of... But yep, the NSA is a good counterexample, however also a poor one as they primarily operate in the signals/digital space, where passive monitoring is the default, and where paper trails are far easier to not leave. As a thought experiment, extrapolate from the NSA to "the Bush administration did 9/11, jet fuel can't melt steel, it was a controlled demolition" conspiracy theory that implicitly requires government agents lining massive skyscrapers with explosives without being noticed, without anyone having a moral crisis, especially no-one in the "crash a plane allegedly filled with American citizens into a building in New York" division. And you'll quickly see how the NSA's quiet operations in the small don't scale to the level of competent and silent government required for faking a moon landing, or ensuring no-one knows about aliens amongst us etc etc.
  - swader999 3y ago
    How did building 7 fall?
    - EdwardDiego 3y ago
      NIST wrote an extensive report.
      - colordrops 3y ago
        The NIST report had very basic important information like speed of collapse found to be incorrect by high school teacher David Chandler.
        EdwardDiego 3y ago
        Ah, a high school teacher who makes YouTube videos. Well, I'm convinced. Who needs engineers and scientists eh?
        colordrops 3y ago
        You can be a dismissive snob, but NIST actually changed their report based on his feedback.
        EdwardDiego 3y ago
        Okay, so the final report is correct then thanks to him, but the conclusions didn't change, IIRC? I dismissed him out of hand, I'll admit.
        EdwardDiego 3y ago
        Okay, so the final report is correct then thanks to him, but the conclusions aren't? I dismissed him out of hand, I'll admit. I'm just really unsure why the idea that heat reduces the strength of steel enough, and that the failure of the columns located in the hottest area of the fire then caused a cascading failure across other columns, is considered less likely than massive conspiracy. It's the usual swiss cheese model of disaster.
- sixstringtheory 3y ago
  Basically everything protected by any level of security clearance is high school drama antics compared to the distilled existentialism of "aliens exist." That would throw basically all of human history and psychology as we know it right out the window. I think your last statement actually works against your point. The fact that the government has individuals increases the probability of leaks. Only a true monolith could remain airtight.
  - colordrops 3y ago
    You missed my point about monoliths. Some groups operate more tightly and competently than others.
    - sixstringtheory 3y ago
      Just went back and read it again, I see your point on that now.
  - just_a_psyop 3y ago
    [flagged]

hindsightbias 3y ago

HN has taught me that Gov’t is utterly incompetent in every domain and that the MSM all a propaganda organ. Except of course when the Venn diagram of what I Want To Believe intersects.

colordrops 3y ago

Manhattan Project, and many NSA projects until Snowden. You also don't know about the projects that didn't leak. You are basically saying that security clearance is worthless. It is indeed possible and there is a lot of precedent for large projects with long life spans that didn't leak. The "government" isn't a monolithic entity. It contains individuals and groups of a range of competencies.

EdwardDiego 3y ago
> Manhattan Project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs Won't point out all the double agents for the KGB that infested western spy agencies, (and vice versa) it's more of the same, really, and there's too many names to type. And those are only the ones we know of... But yep, the NSA is a good counterexample, however also a poor one as they primarily operate in the signals/digital space, where passive monitoring is the default, and where paper trails are far easier to not leave. As a thought experiment, extrapolate from the NSA to "the Bush administration did 9/11, jet fuel can't melt steel, it was a controlled demolition" conspiracy theory that implicitly requires government agents lining massive skyscrapers with explosives without being noticed, without anyone having a moral crisis, especially no-one in the "crash a plane allegedly filled with American citizens into a building in New York" division. And you'll quickly see how the NSA's quiet operations in the small don't scale to the level of competent and silent government required for faking a moon landing, or ensuring no-one knows about aliens amongst us etc etc.
- swader999 3y ago
  How did building 7 fall?
  - EdwardDiego 3y ago
    NIST wrote an extensive report.
    - colordrops 3y ago
      The NIST report had very basic important information like speed of collapse found to be incorrect by high school teacher David Chandler.
      - EdwardDiego 3y ago
        Ah, a high school teacher who makes YouTube videos. Well, I'm convinced. Who needs engineers and scientists eh?
        colordrops 3y ago
        You can be a dismissive snob, but NIST actually changed their report based on his feedback.
        EdwardDiego 3y ago
        Okay, so the final report is correct then thanks to him, but the conclusions didn't change, IIRC? I dismissed him out of hand, I'll admit.
        EdwardDiego 3y ago
        Okay, so the final report is correct then thanks to him, but the conclusions aren't? I dismissed him out of hand, I'll admit. I'm just really unsure why the idea that heat reduces the strength of steel enough, and that the failure of the columns located in the hottest area of the fire then caused a cascading failure across other columns, is considered less likely than massive conspiracy. It's the usual swiss cheese model of disaster.
sixstringtheory 3y ago
Basically everything protected by any level of security clearance is high school drama antics compared to the distilled existentialism of "aliens exist." That would throw basically all of human history and psychology as we know it right out the window. I think your last statement actually works against your point. The fact that the government has individuals increases the probability of leaks. Only a true monolith could remain airtight.
- colordrops 3y ago
  You missed my point about monoliths. Some groups operate more tightly and competently than others.
  - sixstringtheory 3y ago
    Just went back and read it again, I see your point on that now.
- just_a_psyop 3y ago
  [flagged]